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originally posted in:Secular Sevens
Edited by Quantum: 5/17/2013 9:23:54 PM
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I thought this reply from HM Rob was worthy of everyone to see, so I quoted it here. [quote]Yes, Palestine is a region, I know that. But the fact of the matter is that Palestinians are basically Muslim Israelis, making them less worthwhile than the Jewish Israelis. Secondly, Israel is allied with us because they hate just about everyone that surrounds them, just as we do. They hate Russia ("Cold War doctrine") and are Jewish. Therefore, they are far superior to the Palestinians in the eyes of most Americans. Lastly, retaliation -- in regards to the Middle East -- can never be too excessive, sans nuclear bombs.[/quote] [quote] Yes, Palestine is a region, I know that. But the fact of the matter is that Palestinians are basically Muslim Israelis, making them less worthwhile than the Jewish Israelis. [/quote] Holy shit you are outright openly racist. Or bigoted. [quote]Secondly, Israel is allied with us because they hate just about everyone that surrounds them, just as we do. They hate Russia ("Cold War doctrine") and are Jewish. Therefore, they are far superior to the Palestinians in the eyes of most Americans.[/quote] According to you most Americans are racist too. (Which is probably not true) [quote] Lastly, retaliation -- in regards to the Middle East -- can never be too excessive, sans nuclear bombs.[/quote] I.... am lost for words.
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  • Edited by Diplomat: 5/19/2013 1:01:40 AM
    HM Rob has a very twisted and neo-con foreign policy. Not only is his policy regarding retaliation immoral, it is also counter intuitive to American security interests. Full response coming when I have time for his shit. EDIT FUUUUCK, I LIKED HIS POST BY ACCIDENT. GODDAMMIT NEW BUNGIE!

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  • Holy crap. Where was that posted, lol?

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  • See his own sub thread further down.

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  • 1) Religion isn't a race, bud. Secondly, my opposition to Mideastern Muslims goes without having to be explained. Western Muslims aren't necessarily violent (an example being my Muslim friend), but a nonviolent Muslim from the Mideast is a rarity. The Jews are much less dangerous and, by most accounts, are less hateful of America. Therefore, my blatant disregard for the well-being of all things between Israel and India makes perfect sense. 2) Again, that's not racist. 3) So the Jews are just supposed to let the Muslims have their way with them? Lol, nope.

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  • Edited by Quantum: 5/17/2013 9:24:38 PM
    [quote]1) Religion isn't a race, bud.[/quote] When you outright split people into two distinct groups and say 1 is better than the other, that is pure racism. It doesn't really matter what the dividing principle is. Even if it isn't racism it is pure bigotry. [quote] but a nonviolent Muslim from the Mideast is a rarity. [/quote] So hundreds of millions of Muslims in the Middle East are extremely likely to be violent? You do realize how retarded you sound, right? [quote] The Jews are much less dangerous and, by most accounts, are less hateful of America. Therefore, my blatant disregard for the well-being of all things between Israel and India makes perfect sense.[/quote] It doesn't justify a lot of the shit Israel does. [quote] 2) Again, that's not racist. [/quote] Above. [quote] 3) So the Jews are just supposed to let the Muslims have their way with them? Lol, nope.[/quote] This is another example of the great though trainwreck "if we somewhat limit X military from doing certain things, they will get rolled over!" It's retarded. Israel has the right to defend itself but that does not mean it has the right to defend itself through every possible means. They have been dropping [b]White Phosphorous, [/b]killing civilians in the process. The retaliation is overdone, and the fact that you circle jerk around this is amazing. It's exactly the same mentality that justified the Iraq War (ANYONE WHO DISAGREES IS AN AMERICA HATER), although in this case it is Israel. *Couple of grammar errors fixed.

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  • 1) You're missing the point. The Israeli Jews don't hate us like the (Palestinian) Muslims hate us. If there are two groups of people, one that tolerates us and the other that hates us, I'm going to view the "tolerating" group as the more superior people. The second group doesn't deserve my respect if they aren't willing to give some back in return. Secondly, yes. Most Mideastern Muslims view us as infidels. Not all of them (e.g. Curds), but most of them. Much of Islamic doctrine is based upon the opposition of Judaism and Christianity. Thirdly, I don't give a shit if you think Israel is justified in what they do. Being that each of her surrounding countries continually prods the shit out of them, I don't feel bad when Israel decides to airstrike or go ballistic in some fashion. Israel doesn't take shit like we do, and for that they deserve props. They're ABSOLUTELY justified in telling their hateful neighbors to -blam!- off or get -blam!-ed. 2) Above. 3) Israel does bad things, but -- as I've stated before -- Israel's neighbors do equally bad things, including bad things to us. Israel doesn't do bad things to us. The math is simple: Israel is fighting the same enemy as us, and Israel isn't just tolerating us -- they're an ally. Therefore, we support Israel.

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  • [quote]1) You're missing the point. The Israeli Jews don't hate us like the (Palestinian) Muslims hate us. If there are two groups of people, one that tolerates us and the other that hates us, [/quote] To say that all Palestinians hate the US is incredibly stupid. Even so, we made them hate us by supporting Israel. [quote]Secondly, yes. Most Mideastern Muslims view us as infidels.[/quote] Source? [quote]I don't feel bad when Israel decides to airstrike or go ballistic in some fashion. Israel doesn't take shit like we do, and for that they deserve props. They're ABSOLUTELY justified in telling their hateful neighbors to -blam!- off or get -blam!-ed.[/quote] So that justifies all the terrible shit they do? Terrorist groups doing things to them, therefore the Palestinian people should suffer? [quote]The math is simple:[b] Israel is fighting the same enemy as us, a[/b]nd Israel isn't just tolerating us -- they're an ally. Therefore, we support Israel.[/quote] facepalm.jpg

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  • 1) Palestinian Muslims hate us for the same reason that other Mideastern Muslims hate us: We're Americans/not-Muslim. It doesn't matter if we would have helped Israel or not; Palestine would have viewed us as a natural enemy. 2) Basic Islamic doctrine refers to Jews and Christians as "infidels". 3) Palestine allies themselves with known terrorist groups (e.g. Hamas), so it's only natural that -- when they're in a coalition with terrorists -- they're treated like terrorists. (Since they basically are, for all Israeli intents and purposes). 4) I don't understand the face palm. Mideastern Muslim countries are very much our enemy, and Israel is very much an enemy of those countries.

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  • [quote]1) Palestinian Muslims hate us for the same reason that other Mideastern Muslims hate us: We're Americans/not-Muslim. It doesn't matter if we would have helped Israel or not; Palestine would have viewed us as a natural enemy. [/quote] You are generalizing hundreds of millions of people. This can only lead to idiocy. [quote] 2) Basic Islamic doctrine refers to Jews and Christians as "infidels". [/quote] As if Christians historically have been so merciful to non-believers. [quote] 3) Palestine allies themselves with known terrorist groups (e.g. Hamas), so it's only natural that -- when they're in a coalition with terrorists -- they're treated like terrorists. (Since they basically are, for all Israeli intents and purposes). [/quote] They don't exactly have a choice when their country is ruled by these militia. [quote] Muslim countries are very much our enemy,[/quote] Are you a libertarian or a neo-conservative?

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  • 1) I'm generalizing them to make it blatantly obvious that Israel is our ally. 2) Christians have, historically, been given much more power than Muslims. The fact of the matter is that Christians have, by and large, became a very peaceful religion. They may be politically polar to you, but they are primarily nonviolent (with the occasionally exception). 3) Wrong, they have chosen to ally themselves with Muslim terrorists. Hamas is primarily Palestinian, anyway. Palestinians moderates (lol) have chosen to to ally with them just to try and defeat the Israelis. 4) Libertarian, but I'm not a "Ron Paul" libertarian. I know that we can't completely isolate ourselves from the rest of the world.

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  • Edited by Diplomat: 5/19/2013 1:19:36 AM
    [quote]1) I'm generalizing them to make it blatantly obvious that Israel is our ally.[/quote] There is no need to generalize an entire population to show support for an ally. In fact, blindly generalizing entire social groups and then implementing said generalization into policy leads into "Us vs Them" mentalities that excludes multiple possible allies from the security solution. Furthermore, it oftentimes perpetuates hate towards the U.S. and her allies. To defeat radicalism we have to incorporate moderate muslims (who are by far the majority) into the solution, and allow cultural diffusion to further moderate them. [quote]2) Christians have, historically, been given much more power than Muslims. The fact of the matter is that Christians have, by and large, became a very peaceful religion. They may be politically polar to you, but they are primarily nonviolent (with the occasionally exception).[/quote] Islam was by far a peaceful religion, until the establishment of Israel. Even then, the hatred that exists today primarily comes AMERICAN policy mistakes that have needlessly revoked the sovereignty of another nation (see operations Ajax and Iraqi Freedom). [quote]3) Wrong, they have chosen to ally themselves with Muslim terrorists. Hamas is primarily Palestinian, anyway. Palestinians moderates (lol) have chosen to to ally with them just to try and defeat the Israelis.[/quote] Fair enough, but Israel shouldn't even exist in the first place. Now, I'm not saying that we should just get rid of it today, because new people live in the land that was previously inhabited by the Palestinians. However, keep in mind that the establishment of Israel was for the most part wasn't a transaction; it was a steal. [quote]4) Libertarian, but I'm not a "Ron Paul" libertarian. I know that we can't completely isolate ourselves from the rest of the world.[/quote] In reality, the ideas you are putting forth resemble those adopted by neo-cons. In further regards to your post, Middle Eastern countries are the allies of the United States. Kuwait houses strategic airbases, Saudi Arabia is a counterweight to Iran, and Bahrain facilitates the H.Q. of 5th fleet. In fact, the G.C.C. in general furthers our regional interests.

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  • 1) Correct, but we don't have to abandon Israel to garner not-so-Mideastern countries like Kuwait. Despite the fact that they are indeed in the Middle East, they aren't exactly the "Iraq, Iran, Syria"-type country that is typical of the Mideast. Kuwait is on our side because they need a friend vs. Iraq. [url=http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/religions.gif]Saudi Arabia is Sunni[/url], making them a natural enemy of Iran (and now Iraq, since the fall of Hussein). When I speak of our Mideastern enemies, I mostly speak of Iran, Pakistan, and Afghanistan. And, despite Israel's problems with other Mideastern countries (like Syria), it's in our favor to have a Jewish/non-Muslim ally in the region. It helps diversify our interests and ensures an obvious ally-enemy with Iran. 2) No, no they were not. America making Israel a state did not single-handedly change the entire Mideastern opinion of us. 3) Israel was Jewish long before it was Muslim. Hell, the entire region was Jewish during the time of Christ, and that all predates Islam. Perhaps you wish to say that pre-post-WWII (for lack of a better phrase), the Palestinians had control, and therefore were there before the Israelis. However, if you date back long enough, it was indeed the Jews that were there first. And that's besides the fact that Israeli "conquered" the area anyway. 4) Yeah, I know. I'm a very conservative libertarian. It's not fair to call myself a true libertarian, as I'm militarily pretty aggressive. But I am fiscally conservative and socially left-leaning, and that's enough for me to place name myself a libertarian (of sorts). I'm definitely a Republican by the two-party system.

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  • Edited by Diplomat: 5/19/2013 2:55:41 AM
    [quote]1) Correct, but we don't have to abandon Israel to garner not-so-Mideastern countries like Kuwait. Despite the fact that they are indeed in the Middle East, they aren't exactly the "Iraq, Iran, Syria"-type country that is typical of the Mideast. Kuwait is on our side because they need a friend vs. Iraq. Saudi Arabia is Sunni, making them a natural enemy of Iran[/quote] So instead of using geographically incorrect terms to describe nations who are relatively pro-U.S., why don't you just call them pro-U.S.? Dealing with American geography misnomers aside, we do have to pander to Middle Eastern hatred of Israel. That's why we begged Israel not to retaliate during the Gulf War in '91, because the Gulf nations we were relying on for rear and flank protection would have left our nifty coalition. [quote](and now Iraq, since the fall of Hussein).[/quote] That's debatable, Iran has a lot of influence over the current Iraqi government. In my opinion, they aren't intrinsically pro-Iran or pro-U.S. Instead, they are for whoever helps them maintain control. Right now, that's both. So they walk a delicate line between the two nations. [quote]When I speak of our Mideastern enemies, I mostly speak of Iran,[/quote] Okay, but remember that we radicalized Iran through both Operation Ajax and Iraqi Freedom. I mean, they are the product of our own policy stupidity. [quote]Pakistan, and Afghanistan.[/quote] Second geography lesson: Afghanistan and Pakistan are apart of Central Asia, not the Middle East. Unless you are going by Bush's "Greater Middle East" definition, which is total crap in more ways than one. Iran is technically apart of C.A., but most people just lump it in there with the Middle East, which I'm fine with. Especially since they are directly involved with Middle Eastern politics, while AfPak is not. Now then, Pakistan is an enemy... sort of kind of. It's difficult to define, but yeah, I'd just consider them an enemy for the purposes of our discussion. Afghanistan isn't an enemy, it's an ally. We're not fighting the country, we're fighting the instability inside of it. [quote]And, despite Israel's problems with other Mideastern countries (like Syria), it's in our favor to have a Jewish/non-Muslim ally in the region. [b]It helps diversify our interests[/b] and ensures an obvious ally-enemy with Iran.[/quote] Define the bolded. [quote]Israel was Jewish long before it was Muslim. Hell, the entire region was Jewish during the time of Christ, and that all predates Islam.[/quote] Ah yes, I suppose that also gives the Native Americans the right to my home. I better pack up and move out, huh? No, that's silly. The Palestinians had been there for generations, it was their land for all intensive purposes. Furthermore, not all of those Jews were direct descendants of those who lived in the country back in biblical times. [quote]Yeah, I know. I'm a very conservative libertarian. It's not fair to call myself a true libertarian, as I'm militarily pretty aggressive. But I am fiscally conservative and socially left-leaning, and that's enough for me to place name myself a libertarian (of sorts). I'm definitely a Republican by the two-party system.[/quote] Fiscal conservatives don't exist in the Republican party.

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  • 1) I use "geographically inaccurate" terms because of the connotation of words like 'Mideast'. When people think of the Mideast, they think of our Arab enemies. Admittedly, it's not the most accurate of terms (especially when speaking of countries as east as Pakistan), but it gets the point across: From Israel to India, we have a LOT of enemies. And, being that most of the Mideast is considered an enemy, it's easiest to refer to them as Bush did. Because, for diplomatic purposes, the reason they fight the most is religion. And, because they're all Muslim (and from there, Sunny and Shiite), it's not even worth arguing the specifics. The point is that they all hate Israel, and many of them hate us as well. 2) No, Iraq shifted away from Hussein's denomination (i.e. Sunni) and into Shiite, the same as Iran, after Hussein's fall. Iran and Iraq may not be the best of buds, but they're certainly religious allies, especially compared to other Mideastern nations. 3) The problem is that we didn't reinstate another pro-Western Shah instead of allowing the people to make the decisions for themselves. As undemocratic as that may be, Mohammed Pahlavi was actually very supportive of the US, making Iran a relative ally pre-1979. What's the point? We didn't cause Iran to radicalize; we let them. 4) Refer to #1. 5) The Kurds tolerate us because they hate Iraq for "invading" (quote unquote) Kurdistan. Saudi Arabia and Kuwait are two countries that don't love us (especially not Saudi Arabia), but they tolerate us in many situations. Israel hates everyone BUT US, and everyone hates Israel. Palestine does not like us, and us supporting them wouldn't necessarily give us their "friendship". Despite it not being a country, us supporting the Taliban (against the Soviets) is a prime example. 6) You're missing my point. I'm saying that nations who conquer other nations get the land. We conquered America, and Israel conquered the Holy Land. Regardless of the methods, there's a reason why the area is called Israel. 7) They're still far more fiscally conservative than the Democrats.

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  • Edited by Mags: 5/19/2013 7:49:09 PM
    [quote]1) I use "geographically inaccurate" terms because of the connotation of words like 'Mideast'. When people think of the Mideast, they think of our Arab enemies. Admittedly, it's not the most accurate of terms (especially when speaking of countries as east as Pakistan), but it gets the point across: From Israel to India, we have a LOT of enemies. And, being that most of the Mideast is considered an enemy, it's easiest to refer to them as Bush did. Because, for diplomatic purposes, the reason they fight the most is religion. And, because they're all Muslim (and from there, Sunny and Shiite), it's not even worth arguing the specifics. The point is that they all hate Israel, and many of them hate us as well.[/quote]That's not the point. The point is that by using geographically incorrect terms, you make your argument look less credible. I get what you're saying, but what you need to be saying is this: There are high anti-American sentiments in the Middle East and the greater North African-Central Asian spectrum. This makes more sense. To save time, I won't list all the countries in this spectrum that are friendly to us and/or our major military allies. I will, however, list some countries that would be our "enemies" or otherwise do not look at us favorably. This would include: Iran, Pakistan (which is ironic because they are a major non-NATO ally), Tunisia, Sudan, Syria and possibly even Lebanon. [quote]The Kurds tolerate us because they hate Iraq for "invading" (quote unquote) Kurdistan.[/quote]This is and isn't true, both at the same time. There are different Kurds out there. You have Turkish Kurds, Iraqi Kurds, Syrian Kurds, and Iranian Kurds. The one's that probably tolerate us the most is the Iraqi Kurds, which is where you're right. The reason they tolerate us is because we essentially liberated them, as we started the invasion of Iraq in Iraqi Kurdistan. As a whole, I'd say it depends on the Kurd you ask. We've been on the side of Turkey with their fight with the Kurds, Syrian Kurds may not look at us favorably since we're doing nothing to help them in their fight in the Syrian conflict, and Iranian Kurds...I don't know. [quote]Despite it not being a country, us supporting the Taliban (against the Soviets) is a prime example.[/quote]Lol. First of all, the Taliban wasn't even around then.

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  • Edited by Diplomat: 5/19/2013 7:52:10 PM
    [quote] I use "geographically inaccurate" terms because of the connotation of words like 'Mideast'. When people think of the Mideast, they think of our Arab enemies.[/quote] That's a terrible reason to use misinformation to get your point across, you should always use correct information during debates. It doesn't matter if the general perception of Middle Eastern countries assumes that they're our enemy--it's wrong and it's stupid to feed into that idea. [quote]No, Iraq shifted away from Hussein's denomination (i.e. Sunni) and into Shiite, the same as Iran, after Hussein's fall. Iran and Iraq may not be the best of buds, but they're certainly religious allies, especially compared to other Mideastern nations.[/quote] Iran has a lot of influence over Iraq, which is what I'm saying [quote]The problem is that we didn't reinstate another pro-Western Shah instead of allowing the people to make the decisions for themselves.[/quote] No, the problem is that we intervened into their affairs for economic reasons. Say what you will about fulfilling our interests, moral constraints are an important part of policy. Furthermore, there is no way we could have put in another pro-Western guy after the Shah fell, if you actually believe that, then you have no grasp of history whatsoever. By the time the Revolution occurred, Iran wanted the Ayatollahs in power. [quote]What's the point? We didn't cause Iran to radicalize; we let them.[/quote] Are you daft, the entirety of the Iranian Revolution was a response to Operation Ajax. If that hadn't occurred, if we allowed the Prime Minister to stay, and took the hit of nationalized oil, then we wouldn't be dealing with a massively radicalized Tehran. [quote]The Kurds tolerate us because they hate Iraq for "invading" (quote unquote) Kurdistan.[/quote] The Kurds like us, they've always been relatively pro-U.S. They fought heavily against A.Q.I. when they started to seep into Kurdistan. [quote]Saudi Arabia and Kuwait are two countries that don't love us (especially not Saudi Arabia), but they tolerate us in many situations.[/quote] That's irrelevant, political alliances are pragmatic in nature, and have little to do with love. [quote]Israel hates everyone BUT US, and everyone hates Israel.[/quote] Again, our relationship is pragmatic in nature. It has nothing to do with love. Israel takes advantage of our domestic religiosity, thus forcing us to side with them on issues we don't want to have any part of. [quote]Despite it not being a country, us supporting the Taliban (against the Soviets) is a prime example.[/quote] [url=http://middleeast.about.com/od/afghanistan/ss/me080914a_2.htm]Again,[/url] you don't know what you're talking about, which is bad. The Taliban rose in the wake of the Soviet-Afghan War during the 1990's. We funded the Peshawar Seven, commonly known as the Mujahideen. [quote]You're missing my point. I'm saying that nations who conquer other nations get the land. We conquered America, and Israel conquered the Holy Land. Regardless of the methods, there's a reason why the area is called Israel.[/quote] That's a terrible point, the international community no longer supports conquering as a method to get land, because it's immoral to do so. Further, Israel conquered nothing, the West essentially booted the Palestinians out of the Holy Land and gave incoming Jews priority. The only real reason Israel, in my mind and the minds of other scholars, gets sovereignty over the Holy Land is because its people have been settled there for so many generations now. Therefore, it is immoral to kick out the people currently living there. It has nothing to do with being the "winners" EDIT: I misread on of your statements.

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  • Edited by Mags: 5/19/2013 7:49:41 PM
    [quote]The Kurds like us, they've always been relatively pro-U.S. They fought heavily against A.Q.I. when they started to seep into Kurdistan.[/quote]It really depends on which Kurds you're talking about here. Iraqi Kurds love us, but as for the other Kurdish populations, it gets more complicated.

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  • [url=http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-l-phillips/iraqi-kurds_b_1912568.html]Another good article on US-Kurdish relations[/url]

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  • I knew the Iraqi Kurds have strong relations with us, but I didn't know about Turkish, Syrian or Iranian. Thanks.

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  • [url=http://kurdistantribune.com/2011/usa-kurds-partners-or-allies/]I think this article exemplifies the mutual relationship between the Kurds and the United States[/url]. They mainly focus on Iraqi Kurds, but they tough over Turkish and Iranian kurds as well.

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