JavaScript is required to use Bungie.net

#Halo3

11/12/2007 9:22:18 PM
2607

In depth explanation of the Halo 3 skill ranking system.

[b]I am NOT an employee of Bungie nor one of Microsoft, and my views and opinions do not necessarily reflect those of either of the aforementioned entities. Also, thanks for sticking this Bungie, I hope it is useful.[/b] There is one caveat to consider before we get under weigh. Bungie is not likely, nor or ever, to release the true inner workings of the Halo 3 ranking system, but as it is based somewhat on the Microsoft Trueskill system, this is a fair approximation of the way skill ranking works in Halo 3. [quote][i][b]What is the Trueskill system?[/b][/i][/quote] The Trueskill system is a player skill rating system for Xbox Live. Halo 3 uses a version of the Trueskill system in order to make the matches fairly even. [quote][i][b]How Does Trueskill Work?[/b][/i][/quote] Trueskill assigns skills on a normal distribution (bell curve, Gaussian). The Trueskill system has two main variables to consider. They are your player skill level ([b]Mu[/b]) and your uncertainty factor ([b]Sigma[/b]). [b]Mu[/b] is an approximation of your skill level based upon past performance. Win games to raise Mu, and lose games to lower Mu. [b]Sigma[/b] is the numerical representation of the range in which your [i]true[/i] skill could lie. Play really consistently, and you have a low Sigma. Play streakily, and you have a higher Sigma. After a win, the Trueskill system adjusts your skill ranking based upon the Mu and Sigma of all the players in the game. We'll go deeper into [i]how much[/i] it is adjusted later. Trueskill systems use a conservative ranking [b]Ranking = mu - (K * Sigma)[/b] so your skill is likely to be higher than the actual number represented in your Halo 3 highest skill level. K is a constant assigned an arbitrary value by the developers of the game. [quote][i][b]Why don't I level up after winning X games in a row? / Why does my friend go up three levels a game and I don't?[/b][/i][/quote] Mu increases after a win. Always. [b]The increase is proportional to the winner's Sigma and the Mu difference between the winner and the loser.[/b] So, if your Sigma is high, you will proceed faster through the ranking system (in BOTH directions). If your Sigma is low, you will both gain and lose rank more slowly. [quote][i][b]So, I want a high Sigma value?[/b][/i][/quote] While it sounds as though a high Sigma value is desirable, it CAN be a double edged sword. A high Sigma can mean you increase by one level for every win. It also means you decrease by one level for every loss. In addition, a high Sigma means that your skill ranking will be significantly lower than your actual skill owing to the conservative nature of the [b]Ranking = mu - (K * Sigma)[/b] ranking equation. Also, Sigma value starts out VERY high. So, if this is your friend's first time in a particular ranked hopper, and he wins consistently, his rank will rise meteorically due to his high Sigma. [quote][i][b]Myth Busting[/b][/i][/quote] Trueskill DOES NOT take into evaluation performances inside the game. The ONLY statistics that Trueskill takes from a game are the Mu and Sigma values of all the players, and how you placed. This means that out of all of these statistics: Getting the MVP Having a High K/D ratio Getting the most medals Skill levels of those you killed / killed you Weapons you used Headshots Captures, detonations, stops, ousts, etc. NONE of them matter when calculating the Mu increase/decrease. Any link between any of these and the skill ratings are purely correlative and not causative. For example. When I play Team Slayer with my buddies on my alternate gamertag, much of the time I end up carrying the team. I created this tag to play with my buddies, and as such, have only ever played on that party with that tag. I ranked up to the level of my friends within 20 or so games, while it had taken them 50 to 100 games to reach their level. My friends thought that it was because of my frequent MVP status and my high K/D ratio that I leveled up so fast. Wrong. I leveled up fast because [b]A)[/b] I initially had a very high Sigma, making my Mu more variable after each win, [b]B)[/b] Starting out at a 1 and playing people in the mid teens gave me a considerable boost every time I won, and [b]C)[/b] We won more frequently than they had in the past. [quote][i][b]Summation[/b][/i][/quote] If you're worried that you're not getting your fair shake in the ranking system, look at the last 50 games that you've played in that hopper. (If you haven't played 50 games, play more. The system needs more data.) Take your win/loss average. If it's 65% or above, and you've been in that playlist for a while, you've probably increased in level 2 or more times over the last 50 games (or you will in the next 20 or so). Otherwise you are going to be hovering around the same level or dropping in rank. [quote][i][b]Addendum, Opinion, and Technical Notes[/b][/i][/quote] In strict Trueskill systems, Sigma only decreases. I believe the "momentum" system in Halo 3 means that Sigma can be increased through consistent winning or losing. This is total conjecture, but I think that Sigma in Halo 3 matchmaking hoppers is proportional to the absolute value of the win/loss ratio of your last X number of games. The formula probably looks a little like: [b]Sigma = C ( | wins - losses | )[/b] where C is an arbitrary constant. This would explain why when some people go on a win streak with two or more different parties, their skill goes up faster than their teammates' skill. I also believe that the system is weighted so that the peak of the normal distribution is around level 20, not level 25. That means it will take more wins to level through 1-25 than it will 25-50. Which makes a bit of sense, if you don't want the highest levels too terribly crowded. [b]The higher the Sigma of your opponents, the less Mu you gain from beating them.[/b] Predictable outcomes (e.g. win against a lower ranked opponent) are treated as statistically less significant. Upsets are given more weight. So, winning against lower ranked opponents doesn't do much for your Mu rating. Neither does losing against higher ranked ones. But beat a team that's 6 or more ranks above you and at least someone on your team will rank up. Trueskill ratings have no discernable correlation from hopper to hopper. When you play on a hopper you've never played on before, you are starting with a fresh Mu and a high Sigma. Team Mu and Team Sigma are the summation of the Mu and Sigma values of all the players on the team. When calculating the skill of an opponent in a team game, the system uses the Team Mu and Team Sigma values in calculation wherever rational. *Removed equations for space. They can be found in the link below.* [url=http://research.microsoft.com/mlp/apg/Details.aspx#How_to_Update_Skills]The rest of the equations and a less Halo 3 centric analysis of the Trueskill system can be found here.[/url] _________________________________________________________ [b]Important additions, Appendices, and Member Questions Answered[/b] _________________________________________________________ [url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=14457003]In-depth response to a post LoveNub made later in this thread. Should clear things up for some.[/url] [url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/createpost.aspx?postID=14504550]More data analyzed, and a request for help with research[/url] [url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=14451163&postRepeater1-p=4#14471689]Kudos to Jay120171 for finding the post detailing the Mixed Party Bug in matchmaking.[/url] [quote][i][b]"Why do I win 10 games and not level up, then delevel when I lose 2? Help!"[/b][/i][/quote] There are several possible explanations for this. The easiest one, and the one that fits the Trueskill system EXACTLY as explained by Microsoft, is that losing against a team that is X (I believe 6 or more, but experimentation is needed to determine the true value) skill points below you can cause you to lose as much as [b]5 times[/b] the Mu value that winning against even level teams gains you. Of course, winning against a team that has X [i]more[/i] skill levels than you can net you as much as 5 times the Mu gain. The reverse is true as well. Winning against a weak team can count as little as 1/5th of an even skill win. Second, and this is enlightened conjecture, your Sigma value was low at the beginning of your streak, and since your win streak is raising it, the conservative ranking system (Remember, Rank = Mu MINUS (K times Sigma)) is kicking in to reduce your apparent skill level. Your real Mu is higher, but your higher Sigma is having a negative impact. [quote][b]mo0vaf00 writes:[/b] (edited to clarify intent) So is there some kind of value that requires you to be inconsistent to rank up? If I win 1 game going even and win the next going +10 do I have more of a chance of ranking up than just winning 2 games getting the same score?[/quote] This conclusion is popping up fairly frequently. The answer is no. The system does not look at "In Match" statistics. At all. These stats are all included in a list above. The game only looks at your wins and your losses, and the strength of the opponents you play against. Also, the system does not "reward" you for having a high Sigma value. There is ONE positive associated with high Sigma, and there are TWO negatives. Positive: Your level can move up faster through winning. Negative: Your level can move down faster through losing. Negative: The conservative ranking system ranks you lower when your Sigma is higher. Higher Sigma simply means your level is more fluid. Sigma is good to have high when you are still reaching your appropriate skill level, but good to have low once you've reached it and are working on improving. [Edited on 11.24.2007 11:54 PM PST]
English
#Halo3 #Halo

Posting in language:

 

Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • so thats how it works. good to know.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • If all this is true how does halo boosting and deranking work to get a 50 in 22 games in doubles!!!! Honestly i have several friends that boost from a 1 to a 50 in less than 25 games in dubs! EXPLAIN THAY PLZZ!!!! P.S. Please message me with the answer :) [Edited on 08.11.2010 6:51 PM PDT]

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • How does the system work in FFA games? If you got fourth in lone wolves but 4th and 5th were higher than you and 1-3 were higher, are you going to raise up?

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • Good to know, thanks Blueprint!

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] NextLotus1 Ranking up question: I'm a Colonel Grade 2 with 1190 exp. 1200 exp will make me a Colonel Grade 3. If I become a Colonel Grade 3, can I still be promoted to Brigadier if I hit 45 skill level?[/quote] You'll become a brig grade 2. If you wanted to be a plain brig you'd have to lose 200 plus exp

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • Ranking up question: I'm a Colonel Grade 2 with 1190 exp. 1200 exp will make me a Colonel Grade 3. If I become a Colonel Grade 3, can I still be promoted to Brigadier if I hit 45 skill level?

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • All the explanations in the world don't change the fact that the system doesn't produce games where people have reasonably comparable skills (as opposed to official skill level). In virtually every ranked game I've ever played there has been a huge range of skill from best to worst and in most of them one or two people clearly dominated the game.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • very nice. must have taken a long time to think of all that stuff.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • lol no

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • Very very informative. Thank you.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] bk made of cheez My question, (mostly for SWAT, as there is no social SWAT I can practice), does that mean that it's impossible to improve if I am bad without rank-locking myself? I want to improve in SWAT badly, as I am only a 24, but I am almost worried because I don't want to lock myself and not be able to unlock myself.[/quote] If you're decent with a BR, know where the other team will spawn, and can move around the map without getting killed instantly, you should be set.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • in the summatation part of this post you mentioned if your win/loss percentage is 65% or more you wont rank up as fast or as much? so basically you need to lose some games aswell then you should rank up quicker and maybe in larger amounts each game?

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • This might be one of the reasons im a 45..

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • Wait, I'm confused. So if I'm winning huge streaks of games and not ranking up, what is it telling me? Is that because a bad coincidence of the players ranked lower than me in a row, or is it due to previous losses?

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] bk made of cheez You say ( I think...) that, over the past 50 games, if you don't have atleast 65% wins, then you are just going to be stuck at that level, and are basically just going down. My question, (mostly for SWAT, as there is no social SWAT I can practice), does that mean that it's impossible to improve if I am bad without rank-locking myself? I want to improve in SWAT badly, as I am only a 24, but I am almost worried because I don't want to lock myself and not be able to unlock myself.[/quote] There is no such thing as a rank lock. That is a myth -_-

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • I won't lie I was confused at the beginning for a while. Luckily I got with the program and now it all makes sense. Very insightful and Very helpful

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • You say ( I think...) that, over the past 50 games, if you don't have atleast 65% wins, then you are just going to be stuck at that level, and are basically just going down. My question, (mostly for SWAT, as there is no social SWAT I can practice), does that mean that it's impossible to improve if I am bad without rank-locking myself? I want to improve in SWAT badly, as I am only a 24, but I am almost worried because I don't want to lock myself and not be able to unlock myself.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • dude i have 2 give a big thanks 2 u. i also wondered how bungie kept its l;eveling system i always thought it went by win loss ratio but this mu sigma stuff is kinda like it. thanks soo freakin much!!!!!

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • Great info and detailed!

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Mutoid Log [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] SatansReverence Your opponents win/loss ratio does not directly affect your rank. The only way it does is by changing their sigma which changes your possible reward.[/quote]The hell are you talking about?[/quote] [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Mmmm Milk I don't think the ranks of the other players even matter, it's what their win/loss ratio is.[/quote] I was responding to that. And their sigma does affect you in a small way.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] SatansReverence Your opponents win/loss ratio does not directly affect your rank. The only way it does is by changing their sigma which changes your possible reward.[/quote]The hell are you talking about? [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Mmmm Milk I don't think the ranks of the other players even matter, it's what their win/loss ratio is.[/quote]Win/loss ratio does nothing at all. [quote]Your a 30 and have lost no games, your playing with a 30 who has also lost no games (both 100% chance of winning), you somehow are versing 2 50s, but their win/loss is 0.1 (10% chance of winning) so the system automatically predicts your going to win, and if you do win, you wont rank up or rank up that much. If you lose, you will probbaly rank down a fair bit.[/quote]Regardless of the amount of losses, a 50 is a 50. A no-loss 30's mu is much higher than what a locked 30 has, maybe around a locked 40's, but it still isn't as high as a 50's. Thus the 50 team is the one expected to win. [quote]Instead of coming up with a ridiculous explanation for the ranking system; just realize that Halo 3's ranking system is broken. Halo 2 had the right idea. Consistent winning meant leveling up while consistent losing meant leveling down. That is really as simple as it should be.[/quote] At the basic level, Halo 3's is the same. [quote]The level 50 on Halo 3 now encompasses like 20 levels from Halo 2, namely the skill range from 30-50. There is not a large enough distinction in skill between high ranked players in Halo 3 as there was in Halo 2. Bottom line-- the ranking system needs to be fixed! [/quote]Level 50's don't contain 40% of the population. The Halo 2 system left no distinction between lower ranked players. Due to that and the influx of new players, the lower ranks were a total mess. [Edited on 07.12.2010 2:26 PM PDT]

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • Very informative. Thanks

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Mmmm Milk I don't think the ranks of the other players even matter, it's what their win/loss ratio is. Eg. In team doubles Your a 30 and have lost no games, your playing with a 30 who has also lost no games (both 100% chance of winning), you somehow are versing 2 50s, but their win/loss is 0.1 (10% chance of winning) so the system automatically predicts your going to win, and if you do win, you wont rank up or rank up that much. If you lose, you will probbaly rank down a fair bit.[/quote] Your opponents win/loss ratio does not directly affect your rank. The only way it does is by changing their sigma which changes your possible reward. Also, their levels mean alot more then anything. If you are level 30 and you beat level 40s (you cannot face 50s unless you are going in mixed parties) your reward for winning is alot more then beating levels 30s. If you go against level 20s you will get practically nothing and you could beat them hundreds of times and go no where.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Abe I I I I I I If only those idiots who quit at the end of the game would read this. Or those baffoons who think quitting will save their rank... [/quote]It's a shame epic informative threads like this aren't advertised in the game.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • Halo 2 Levels 1-10 Just Learning Controls Levels 11-20 Beginners (Know the maps) Levels 21-25 Intermediate (Know the maps and can aim) Levels 26-31 Skillful (Know the maps,can maneuver well, improved aiming) Levels 32-35 Excellent (Know the maps, can maneuver insane and exceptional aiming) Levels 36-40 Semi-Pro (Has all the aspects of the game down and has teammates who do as well) Levels 40+ Pro (Top 1% of population, the cream of the cream of the crop) Halo 3 1-40 (Mixture of people just learning controls, beginners, and intermediate players) 40+ Skillful players Consistently playing on a 50 (Skillful to Pro)

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • Instead of coming up with a ridiculous explanation for the ranking system; just realize that Halo 3's ranking system is broken. Halo 2 had the right idea. Consistent winning meant leveling up while consistent losing meant leveling down. That is really as simple as it should be. The level 50 on Halo 3 now encompasses like 20 levels from Halo 2, namely the skill range from 30-50. There is not a large enough distinction in skill between high ranked players in Halo 3 as there was in Halo 2. Bottom line-- the ranking system needs to be fixed!

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

1 2 3 4 5 6 7
You are not allowed to view this content.
;
preload icon
preload icon
preload icon