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originally posted in:Secular Sevens
originally posted in: Sam Harris - Islamophobe?
4/4/2013 12:41:16 AM
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Islam deserves all the hate and fear that it gets, and probably then some.
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  • People need to understand the difference between disliking a religion v.s. disliking the practitioners of said religion.

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  • Just like all Americans are obese. All priests are pedos, all jews are greedy, etc. You're making a sweeping generalization. I'm an agnostic, but I don't think Islam, or any religion for that matter, is evil in nature. I just don't believe it.

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  • Good thing I never said all Muslims are evil or savage. It's called reading comprehension.

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  • Then why do you think "Islam [i]deserves[/i] all the hate and fear, and probably then some?"

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  • The misogyny, the violence, the inherently political aspect of the religion via Sharia law, the homophobia, the condoning of pedophilia, etc.

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  • -Yeah it's kind of sexist. But America is also (read Glass Ceiling). -Yeah there is violence in the Qur'an, Bible, Torah, Greek Mythology, Halo, CoD, etc. -If you knew what Sharia law was for, it was something MUSLIMS were supposed to adhere to, non-Muslims were not supposed to be forced to follow it. Oh and look at the Republicans, and how people still even vote for them. -Homophobia...something America can't even get over. You expect a backwards society to get over it? -Condoning pedophilia (read Catholic Church) Why don't you hate ALL the things in the world that also do these things and not single out Islam?

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  • I do hate all of those things, only thing is that Islam seems to especially have a knack for supporting and/or being involved in these things. I'm not saying all Muslims are bad people, but I think that the religion in itself is dangerous to say in the least. I mean, let's be honest, it singlehandedly F'd up the Middle East just as Protestantism is F'ing up America.

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  • We [i]DO[/i] hate those things in all their forms. It just so happens that Islam is the world's foremost perpetrator of pretty much all of them. -The glass ceiling problem doesn't even come [i]close[/i] to the levels of sexism and oppression in Islamic countries. Being paid a little less, while unfair, is an infinitely more mild complaint to have than being forced to cover yourself at all times, being totally subservient to men, having no way to protect yourself from being rap­ed or otherwise harmed by [i]anyone[/i], being unable to obtain education [i]of any kind[/i], etc. -There isn't just fictional violence in the books (though I'm glad to see you admit that the contents of the books are, in fact, fictional by comparing them to other fictional works), but there is also [i]actual[/i] violence perpetrated by adherence of this doctrine [i]as a direct result of their following it[/i]. Certainly other religions have perpetrated similar horrors in the past, but Islam is the only current religion that is still doing it on such a massive scale. We single them out because the problem with them is much more widespread, and much more dire, than with other current religions. -There are definitely places in the Qu'ran that say fairly explicitly that unbelievers are to be converted or killed if they refuse. -As with sexism above, hom­ophobia isn't [i]nearly[/i] has bad here as it is in Islamic countries. [i]Our[/i] society is making an effort to move past such intolerance and become better... not everyone, but many, if not most people. The overall trend is toward progress. The same can't be said for the Islamic world. -As you no doubt have noticed, atheists do tend to attack the Catholic church a lot for their abuse of children. But this is likely an area that Islam has even the Catholics beaten in as well. Given the extreme, society-wide religious oppression in the Islamic world, and the total lack of any power or rights whatsoever on the part of women and young girls, it's impossible to know just how many girls are abused and never are able to report it. Every so often a story leaks out that outrages the rest of the world about some poor abused child, but I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of those sorts of tales never reach our ears.

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  • Are you trying to imply that I somehow don't criticize anything else ever?

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  • No I'm not saying that. But you do tend to make the most hateful remarks towards Islam on the most part, at least since I joined this group.

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  • I don't make hateful remarks about Islam. Also, it just so happens that, in the world today, that Islam is the most dangerous, savage, and unstable religion known to man. That isn't hate, that's observation.

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  • But we should judge Islam by it's minority right? Are the Catholics most prone to pedophilia? Islam is not dangerous, savage or unstable. You seem to be describing terrorists. Next you should say that all mentally ill are the most dangerous people in America because they all seem to be the ones doing the mass shootings.

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  • No. I'm judging Islam based on the teachings of Islam as they are found in the Qur'an.

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  • I don't think you understand how the Qur'an was made. The Qur'an was made in parts, or surahs okay. The whole book wasn't created at once, they were made in surahs in seperate years. Almost every single section where it says to "kill the pagans/infidels/non-muslims" were all during times of war.

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  • I am aware, and that is a completely irrelevant point.

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  • The point is that it is being misinterpreted.

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  • No, it really isn't.

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  • Yes it is. It's like a soldier reading a historic decloration of war against Britain, and then when he sees the British Allies showing up to base, he opens fire on them. That act of violence was justifiable when USA was fighting for independance, not now. Same goes with the Qur'an.

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  • It is nothing like that. Current day American policy towards Germany is not dictated by the fact that the nations were at war 70 years ago. That declaration of war is no longer relevant in the behaviour of modern nations, or any human being alive on this planet. The same cannot be said about the Qur'an, or any religious book, that actively informs, influences, and dictates the behaviour of that religions adherents. You know why your example doesn't work? Because no soldier is shooting at British people after reading a declaration of war that is 3 centuries old. But people ARE having their behaviour controlled by the Qur'an. Homosexuals are hung in the Islamic world because of that book. Acid is thrown in the faces of young girls and women that take an interest in non-Muslim men [i]in nations like Canada[/i] because of that book. It is responsible for so much evil in the world that everyone would be better off using it for kindling in the winter.

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  • I made the same analogy a few days ago, only I did it correctly. :) Not all mentally ill people are dangerous, but in the vast majority of cases, when a mentally ill person commits violence, it's as a direct result of their mental illness. We don't group all mentally ill people into the same category as dangerous murderers, but that doesn't mean we wouldn't be somewhat wary of all of them, and it certainly doesn't mean we can ignore mental illness's role in the violent tendencies of those who exhibit them.

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  • Do we ever screen these terrorists to see if they're medically ill? Nope. They're ussually killed, commit suicide, or sent to Guantanamo (where they get waterboarded lol). We always end the investigation when we find out he's Muslim and probably Al-Qaida/Taliban. We never hear the medical examination. Now would your outlook on Islam change if we found out the majority of these Muslim Terrorists were in fact mentally ill people taken advantage of by Taliban/Al-Qaeda leadership? I'm not saying that this is what happening, but the behavior is that of the mentally ill correct?

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  • So you're open to the idea that devout faith counts as a mental illness?

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  • No you moron. You can be Atheist/agnostic/muslim/christian/budhist/etc. and have a mental illness correct? But we stop at the religion part, identifying them as Muslim. What if some of them have mental illnesses (like Sandy Hook shooter, Batman theatre shooter, etc)? That's what I'm saying.

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  • Insults are not needed.

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  • Sorry about that. But you understand where I'm getting at correct?

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