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7/29/2024 11:32:44 AM
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I understand what you’re trying to get at, but Schrödinger’s Cat is a metaphor for Quantum Uncertainty. The idea is that until an object is observed, the two possible states it is in are both equally real, but by testing for both probabilities, you end up defining one as real and the other as false. It’s impossible to have the two separate states be true at the same time after testing. Ie: both possibilities are equally true until the possibilities are observed, defining one as true and the other as false. Now this gets into the issue of “By observing the cat, do we change the state the cat was in” witch is applicable to real life physics, in particular, the measuring, or lack there, of Subatomic particles. The issue with these particles is that we can only ever know the Velocity OR the location of these particles at a given time. By finding the location of the particle, we are unable to determine its velocity or energy, but by finding the velocity, we are unable to find its location. The particle before observation has both states, but by observing it, we actively change the state it’s in, either setting its energy or its location for certainty. It’s in an uncertain state. [b][i][u](I DO NOT HAVE A DEGREE IN PHYSICS OR QUANTUM MECHANICS. TAKE EVERYTHING I SAID WITH A GRAIN OF SALT. THIS IS SIMPLY MY UNDERSTANDING OF THE PRINCIPLES AND COULD VERY WELL BE WRONG.)[/u][/i][/b]
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  • There’s a difference between “concept” and “by the letter”, correct?

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  • Yes. The only issue I found though, is that you are applying the concept with a so so comparison. It’s never going to be a 1 to 1, but the comparison just doesn’t make sense, to me that is. You did provide a logical reasoning which supports your claim though. It’s much better than some other posts made by some other person/s.

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  • Edited by Sunslinger: 7/29/2024 11:17:46 PM
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    Too stupid = no reply - 8/1/2024 1:03:57 PM

    You mock me, but look what all that effort you put in got you in the end. OP is still not worth either of our time.

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  • Huh?

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  • Edited by Sunslinger: 7/29/2024 11:25:36 PM
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    Too stupid = no reply - 8/1/2024 1:03:57 PM

    You said [quote]It’s much better than some other posts made by some other person/s.[/quote] Now after all your patience, OP hit you with [quote] And I just drew it out in crayon how those factors work into it and drew out the conclusion based on the premise.[/quote] OP is calling you stupid. Your coddling didn't matter bc OP still thinks they're a genius and every one of us is just an idiot who can't see their brilliance. So you wasted your time and I had a fun time mocking OP. Sounds like I made the right choice to me, but to each their own.

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  • I mean fair enough. Just didn’t know where you were coming from.

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    Too stupid = no reply - 8/1/2024 1:03:57 PM

    I've met a lot of people. I recognize archetypes pretty fast now. Which makes me seem unreasonable. I get it.

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  • Edited by BarStool: 7/30/2024 12:13:51 AM
    Nah. Just didn’t understand the subject of your comment. My fault completely.

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  • How’s the comparison lacking? Forest exists outside time and space; quantum dimension Saint is the cat One walked in, one walked out after an observer (us) went in and forced an outcome.

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  • Your argument hinges on the idea that both Saints are the same single entity in an uncertain state. That is not the case, as stated by both your own argument of separate instances within the forest, and proven by Dialogue showing that the past of the living Saint is different from the past of the dead Saint. (The dialogue between him and Osiris of their first confessions of love) Thus, the Cat is not the same being. As for the other simulations, while both saints were going through similar simulations, they were distinct and separate, as you said. Isolated So essentially, what your saying is that both Saints were two separate cats in two separate but identical boxes, yet both have been observed, one to be dead, and the other alive due to our interference. You might equate it to Schrödinger’s Cat, but this is more akin to Parallel Worlds Theory or Multiverse Theory.

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  • Only if you’re applying it by the letter. You can’t agree I’m only talking about the concept then nitpicking the details, using something only as a concept by definition allows variation. Kinda like FTL flight and no one bats an eye. We went back in time sending the very same Saint on a different path but because of the nature of the domains in the Forest being separated, the dead one still exists because it was isolated from the domain we saved him in. In effect, the Forest acts like multiple quantum domains. We altered his course before he went into the area where he died. Parallel and Multiverse are conceptually based on alternate versions. This is the same guy. That’s the difference between time travel and traveling to alternate timelines. Hence why it’s conceptually based on Schrödinger and not parallel or multiverse. I mean in Laymen terms those may be easier to understand but they are different conceptually and so would be incorrect to use.

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  • Let’s break this down. Saint is the cat. The cat is in an uncertain state of being both alive and dead. It’s still one cat though. The issue is, there are two saints, so it’s like saying there are two cats. Furthermore, one cat is certainly alive, and the other is certainly dead. If Schrödinger’s cat is based around uncertainty, the very existence of Saint and his ability to talk with us breaks the comparison. This is again, more akin to Parallel Worlds theory, and more so, Flashpoint. We go into the past, change an event or something, and cause the events of the future to change. This may also irrevocably change the past, as the past of our own timeline stays the same. Much like how in Endgame, the Avengers are able to bring the infinity stones from the past without changing history, we then bring the current saint from an alternate series of events into our timeline, without changing the history of our timeline. Saint still died, but we have an alternate version of Saint, not a copy or clone, but a completely new version, in our timeline now. We don’t know what happened to the other timeline, and it’s possible he could have just disappeared one day. Anyways, what I’m getting at is that it’s not a fair comparison because the Saint we now have is in a certain state. He is a unique being not intrinsically linked to the dead Saint. It’s why two of them can exist at the same time. Which further pushes away the notion that Saint is the cat, as you now have two different cats, even if they share the same box.

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  • Edited by MC 077 Lasombra: 7/29/2024 10:25:12 PM
    I think I got it squared to be better understandable. It’s the extra layers of time travel and more than on isolated domain being involved that allows for the deviation. I think I simplified it better with this: The Forest is a House, an isolated domain, where the cat would be by the textbook. But this is the Forest, so it’s more complicated, the various locations within the Forest are rooms in that house. So an isolated place with more isolated places within it. The cat was in Room 1, got injured and went into Room 2 then dies. So from room 1 to 2 there was an outcome, right? What we did was go back to the Room 1, changed what happened, and cat leaves through room 3 and lives instead. But room 2 has its own time, so it’s not impacted by what happens in rooms 1 and 3. So the dead cat is still there. That’s because unlike Schrödinger, we are adding travel and more than one isolated quantum locations. That’s why the extra complexity of this adaptation of the idea allows for two. We “made” a new fate for the original but didn’t [i]erase[/i] his previous one. Whereas when we saved Younger Saint we were in the material universe. There were no isolated rooms to allow for deviation, so there is and was still just one Saint. My idea explains how both happen, how they are different and how we still saved the original. All I did was find a way to explain it clearly.

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  • But that does not explain the difference in history between this Saint and the memories Osiris has. At this point we’re going beyond just the argument between Schrödinger’s cat. My point was that it simply isn’t a good comparison because there are two distinct and different saints, even if they shared the same past. The comparison you propose has nothing to do with Uncertainty, which is the whole point of the Schrödinger’s Cat theorem. We have two separate states, and both are certain, thus, there is no Schrödinger’s cat.

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  • Edited by MC 077 Lasombra: 7/29/2024 10:59:09 PM
    The Echo has the power of Control, Maya knows Exos and Missing Pages shows Vex radiolaria within a body can affect the mind and the body. Not just of humans but Exos as well. It’s spelled out in Missing Pages. Clovis had doctored memories of Maya being there and working for him. So that explains it the thing you say is missing. It’s already been accounted for. And Uncertainty only applies while Saint is inside the Forest, stepping out is where it stops. That’s how the one who lives is original, the dead is “theoretical” that didn’t step out. That’s why you put them both together and it makes sense. Schrödinger doesn’t incorporate time travel or multiple isolated domains. Your counter argument isn’t. You’re just saying because there are two it’s wrong. Explain how a room within a room doesn’t change how it works. Cause the very premise of the idea is the isolation creates uncertainty. Rooms within rooms means layers of isolation and therefore layers of uncertainty. And I just drew it out in crayon how those factors work into it and drew out the conclusion based on the premise.

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  • Look, I finally understand how you were applying the Schrodinger’s Cat concept to the whole event and experience, but the issue is that the concept is too bare bones. As I have explained, the principles primary component deals with uncertainty. It’s one subject with two possible outcomes, and those outcomes are treated as equally likely. The way you’re applying the concept is by essentially making Saint the Outcome. The uncertainty. But that doesn’t work because then you have the same outcome no matter what. If Saint is the outcome, and you say they are the same Saint, then by all definitions even if there were two answers, there is only 1 Outcome. If his life or death is the outcome, you continue to run into the issue because both saints are distinct. Just like how there can be multiple Answers but 1 outcome, since the answers are not the outcome, and Life and Death are, you have two outcomes on 2 different answers. Anyway you try to craft it, this is, even conceptually, nothing like Schrodingers Cat.

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  • I made the “alive or dead” as the outcome. I said it numerous times, that the whole point was to change that outcome, him dying. Saint would only be the outcome if we were talking about him ever existing at all. Which is odd you came to that conclusion cause even Schrödinger used alive/dead as the outcome that was uncertain…. So all I did was change the cat with Saint and the room with a house full of rooms. Yet you somehow missed that….

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  • Again, you’re missing the whole point. Conceptually, Schrondingers Cat deals with uncertainty and there is no uncertain state when it came to Saint. If the outcome is Life and Death, there are two Saints then, removing the possibility of it being Schrodingers cat purely because it’s one being with two possible outcomes in comparison to the saints who are two distinct and separate entities. As for the Saint to Outcome comparison I made, I was very unclear as to what I was trying to do. I created a new argument for you which hinges on the idea that both Saints are two distinct beings, and that the point in time where we change things is treated as the “uncertainty”. But this logically does not make sense either as there is certainty in both futures of Saint. Without our interference, he dies. With our interference he lives. It’s not random, and because uncertainty requires randomness, this is not an uncertain situation. Furthermore, this argument does not work in the context of your previous arguments because your argument hinges on the idea that both Saints are the same being, despite both saints being clearly distinct both in identity and memory. As such, look at the paragraph above. So either way you try to piece this together, this entire situation is not Schrodinger’s Cat. As such, it’s much more similar to Alternate Timelines/World/Multiverse Theory.

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  • I said “Life [b][i][u]OR[/u][/i][/b] death” not both, so there aren’t two outcomes. I explicitly said the outcome was one or the other and we went back in time to force the life outcome because his fate wouldn’t be “certain” until he left the Forest. Also I’ve said the memories not matching was due to the Conductor altering his memories. So that angle has been covered. So your two main counterpoints, one seems to be you misreading OR for AND and the other was already explained you just missed it. Also the premise of Schrodinger is uncertainty until observation, randomness is what makes the uncertainty, observation is what makes the Outcome. And who was there to observe? Us.

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