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originally posted in: Let's talk about Hunters
Edited by The Legend Himself: GONZO: 12/6/2023 8:10:37 PM
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I’m genuinely baffled that you feel this way. You seem like a genuinely good player and your writing, with the necessary caveats, shows that you’re fairly rational and intelligent. With that being said, I think Hunters are easily the easiest class to build into and very powerful. I’m interested to see why we differ in opinions so much. Like you, I too play all three classes fairly evenly and have end-game accomplishments that rival your own, though you probably edge past me in certain regards. Here are some key take-aways for why I feel the way that I do. (FYI, I typically run 100 Mobility, 100 Resilience, and 80-100 on whatever other ability I’m focusing on, based on my subclass and/or equipped exotic.) 1. Solar: Incredible power and utility. I always run a healing grenade for on-demand healing and supplement the lack of offensive grenade with Gunpowder Gamble for absurdly powerful and insanely fast uptime grenade damage. I also run Recuperation, Ember of Searing & Ember of Mercy for never-ending Firesprites for healing. 2. Arc: Powerful one-and-done super. Combination blow & Lethal Current are a powerful combination (no pun intended) paired with Spark of Resistance & Lethal Current with Flow State. I also use Recuperation for further survivability. 3. Void: Incredible support super with absurdly fast cooldowns (especially if paired with Orpheus Rig) and on-demand invisibility for moving to safety to recover health or run past enemies. 4. Strand: Incredible mobility with double Grapples. Paired with Cyrtarachne’s Façade, you have constant Woven Mail that can be continuously refreshed. Or, constant suspend with The Sixth Coyote and two Shackle Grenades via Widow’s Silk & Ensnaring Slam. 5. Stasis: … … … Well, Renewal Grasps are good…ish. lol. Okay, Stasis needs help. All jokes aside, Renewal Grasps with Touch of Winter, Grim Harvest, Whisper of Durance, Whisper of Chains, Whisper of Conduction, and Whisper of Rime makes you hard to kill.
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  • Appreciate the compliments, bud. Always a toss-up posting this kind of stuff online as to what type of responses you'll get (hence the disclaimer and credentials at the beginning haha). As for Hunters being the easiest to build into...I'm gonna have to disagree with ya on that. I find their gameplay loops to be the most complex requiring the most management of ability timers and combat rotations of the three classes, which is exactly why I LOVE playing Hunter. It gives my overthinking, hyperactive self a ton of different things to keep track of while I'm playing as opposed to Titan's "sNorT pOwdeReD cRayOnS...pUnCH" or Warlock's "Drop a magical healing circle and watch your minions do all your work for you" gameplay style. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the other classes as well (Strand Warlock threadling build is one of my favorites in the game right now), but Hunter is my fave specifically because of the skill gap. That being said...the skill gap needs to feel worth it in the form of high-risk/high-reward, and that's where my issue lies. I don't have a problem having to do extra steps, but to do all that work and then watch my Warlock and Titan brethren get the same effect but better AND without having to jump through any of the same hoops? It's frustrating. For example, let's look at the various knife-throwing Solar builds. First, we are required to equip the aspect Knock 'Em Down to get the melee refund when radiant. Then, we have to have Ember of Torches or Acrobat's Dodge to get the Radiant buff. Then, we HAVE to get a melee kill for the refund. We miss or hit but don't kill? Have to then burn our class ability just for a second chance at the melee refund. And all the while, the only chance we have at health is if we run Healing Grenade or run one of the Firesprite-generating fragments AND Ember of Mercy AND Ember of Empyrean if we want to keep healing. Meanwhile, Solar Titans equip Throwing Hammer, get a melee refund whether they kill or not, get Cure just from picking up their hammer, and create a Sunspot that provides Restoration on kill. Oh, and if they whiff their hammer? No big deal. Their unpowered melee does everything but the Cure. No burning their class ability to get the hammer back. No Healing Grenade required. Just throw hammer...profit. And then they have the nerve to whine about a brief cooldown timer lol. Anyway, didn't mean to write a novel as a response, but just wanted to illustrate more in-depth the level of detail I'm talking about. It isn't just at face value that Hunters are categorically weak; it's that every tiny bit of advantage we earn feels tremendously more difficult to get than the other classes, that benefit earned is usually weaker than the benefit acquired by those other classes, and it seems to get worse with every update. I realize it's getting long, but didn't want to ignore your counterpoints, so I'll briefly respond to those if you care to keep reading. And thanks for the thoughtful, well-written reply, by the way! 1. Already covered some of this above, but another issue with Solar that impacts Hunters more than the other 2 is the awful way that picking up a Firesprite takes your Restoration timer to :02 no matter what. If picking up a Firesprite just added :02 seconds to your existing timer, it'd still take a few more steps to get Resto than the other classes, but it'd be WAY more manageable. 2. Arc is probably the subclass that feels the most on-par with the others. Only real gripe I have here is the non-stacking damage from Gathering Storm. This should be the example for how Bungie goes about subclass balancing. All three classes feel great, all three have distinct identities, and all three have several different viable build options. 3. I LOVE Void Hunter (as do most Hunter mains). That being said, needing to run Omnioculus to get 50% damage reduction feels a bit lame now that Weavewalk grants Warlocks 90% damage reduction by default. I'm sure we've all been in the situation where an enemy inexplicably continues aggro-ing us while we're invisible, we somehow get headshot sniped while invisible, or a teammate wanders behind us while invisible and gets us cooked by inadvertently using us as a meat shield. Inherent DR while invis would help out a lot to combat invis being occasionally finicky. Obviously it couldn't be 90% since the uptime is typically higher, though. And if the argument is that DR while invis is OP, then why do Warlocks get it? 4. Strand is a tough one for me. I LOVE the Cyrtarachne build (it holds a special place in my heart since I made a build of it that I was using for several months before the YouTubers and the community at large fell in love with it), and Whirling Maelstrom was a fantastic addition. However, the way Banner of War is right now, it still feels underpowered by comparison. This is another example of comparing specific builds with exotic armor assistance to inherent class/subclass strengths. Take Cyrtarachne's Facade away, and you'll die before you even get within punching range of your grapple melee target in difficult content. 5. I admittedly haven't used Stasis Hunter much since they un-nerfed it. Hard for me to comment on this one, but from what I recall, it yet again pales in comparison to the strength and survivability of the other classes. Side note...Stasis Titan has to be the most annoying subclass in the game. Why would Bungie think it's a good idea for your teammate to basically just be a giant troll that limits your visibility and mobility by littering the map with Stasis Crystals? Ugh...I hate it!

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  • Edited by The Legend Himself: GONZO: 12/7/2023 2:49:45 AM
    [quote]Appreciate the compliments, bud. Always a toss-up posting this kind of stuff online as to what type of responses you'll get (hence the disclaimer and credentials at the beginning haha). As for Hunters being the easiest to build into...I'm gonna have to disagree with ya on that. I find their gameplay loops to be the most complex requiring the most management of ability timers and combat rotations of the three classes, which is exactly why I LOVE playing Hunter. It gives my overthinking, hyperactive self a ton of different things to keep track of while I'm playing as opposed to Titan's "sNorT pOwdeReD cRayOnS...pUnCH" or Warlock's "Drop a magical healing circle and watch your minions do all your work for you" gameplay style. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the other classes as well (Strand Warlock threadling build is one of my favorites in the game right now), but Hunter is my fave specifically because of the skill gap. That being said...the skill gap needs to feel worth it in the form of high-risk/high-reward, and that's where my issue lies. I don't have a problem having to do extra steps, but to do all that work and then watch my Warlock and Titan brethren get the same effect but better AND without having to jump through any of the same hoops? It's frustrating. For example, let's look at the various knife-throwing Solar builds. First, we are required to equip the aspect Knock 'Em Down to get the melee refund when radiant. Then, we have to have Ember of Torches or Acrobat's Dodge to get the Radiant buff. Then, we HAVE to get a melee kill for the refund. We miss or hit but don't kill? Have to then burn our class ability just for a second chance at the melee refund. And all the while, the only chance we have at health is if we run Healing Grenade or run one of the Firesprite-generating fragments AND Ember of Mercy AND Ember of Empyrean if we want to keep healing. Meanwhile, Solar Titans equip Throwing Hammer, get a melee refund whether they kill or not, get Cure just from picking up their hammer, and create a Sunspot that provides Restoration on kill. Oh, and if they whiff their hammer? No big deal. Their unpowered melee does everything but the Cure. No burning their class ability to get the hammer back. No Healing Grenade required. Just throw hammer...profit. And then they have the nerve to whine about a brief cooldown timer lol. Anyway, didn't mean to write a novel as a response, but just wanted to illustrate more in-depth the level of detail I'm talking about. It isn't just at face value that Hunters are categorically weak; it's that every tiny bit of advantage we earn feels tremendously more difficult to get than the other classes, that benefit earned is usually weaker than the benefit acquired by those other classes, and it seems to get worse with every update. I realize it's getting long, but didn't want to ignore your counterpoints, so I'll briefly respond to those if you care to keep reading. And thanks for the thoughtful, well-written reply, by the way! 1. Already covered some of this above, but another issue with Solar that impacts Hunters more than the other 2 is the awful way that picking up a Firesprite takes your Restoration timer to :02 no matter what. If picking up a Firesprite just added :02 seconds to your existing timer, it'd still take a few more steps to get Resto than the other classes, but it'd be WAY more manageable. 2. Arc is probably the subclass that feels the most on-par with the others. Only real gripe I have here is the non-stacking damage from Gathering Storm. This should be the example for how Bungie goes about subclass balancing. All three classes feel great, all three have distinct identities, and all three have several different viable build options. 3. I LOVE Void Hunter (as do most Hunter mains). That being said, needing to run Omnioculus to get 50% damage reduction feels a bit lame now that Weavewalk grants Warlocks 90% damage reduction by default. I'm sure we've all been in the situation where an enemy inexplicably continues aggro-ing us while we're invisible, we somehow get headshot sniped while invisible, or a teammate wanders behind us while invisible and gets us cooked by inadvertently using us as a meat shield. Inherent DR while invis would help out a lot to combat invis being occasionally finicky. Obviously it couldn't be 90% since the uptime is typically higher, though. And if the argument is that DR while invis is OP, then why do Warlocks get it? 4. Strand is a tough one for me. I LOVE the Cyrtarachne build (it holds a special place in my heart since I made a build of it that I was using for several months before the YouTubers and the community at large fell in love with it), and Whirling Maelstrom was a fantastic addition. However, the way Banner of War is right now, it still feels underpowered by comparison. This is another example of comparing specific builds with exotic armor assistance to inherent class/subclass strengths. Take Cyrtarachne's Facade away, and you'll die before you even get within punching range of your grapple melee target in difficult content. 5. I admittedly haven't used Stasis Hunter much since they un-nerfed it. Hard for me to comment on this one, but from what I recall, it yet again pales in comparison to the strength and survivability of the other classes. Side note...Stasis Titan has to be the most annoying subclass in the game. Why would Bungie think it's a good idea for your teammate to basically just be a giant troll that limits your visibility and mobility by littering the map with Stasis Crystals? Ugh...I hate it![/quote] Since we can both be long-winded, I’ll try and keep it short. 1. Yes, there are additional hoops that a Hunter has to go through to proc reliable healing but this is balanced by the fact that it comes with insane damage and ability uptimes. Gunpowder Gamble is crazy powerful and easy to get repeatedly. Warlocks, on the other hand, are pigeonholed into a Well of Radiance or a lackluster Daybreak that is useless in all but the easiest content. Titans NEED reliable healing because they are pigeonholed into risky close-range combat to even be remotely effective, given their pathetic solar supers. If not for Pyrogale Gauntlets (which is useless against aerial targets like the new dungeon boss), they’d still be stuck with subpar supers and risky close-range shenanigans. 2. I agree. Arc is good for all three classes. 3. Let’s not downplay the immense utility of invisibility. It trivializes most encounters and is a go-to for many solo runners. Also, I’ve NEVER felt like I’ve needed Omioculus in any end-game activity. Hell, my go to Lightblade build is a Strand Hunter with Cyrtarachne’s Façade. I’m virtually unkillable! Sure, Warlocks have Weavewalker but now we’re comparing apples to oranges. As for being targeted while invis or incompetent blueberries… that’s not an exclusive Hunter problem. 4. The existence of Banner of War does not take away from the immense defensive power of a Cyrtarachne’s Façade (CF) Hunter. Yes, Banner of War is good but it requires a risky play style so it better damn well be good! I can literally sit in a corner as a Hunter with CF, drop a grapple point on the floor, and keep proc-ing permanent Woven Mail as I melt targets from a safe distance with Wishender without ever losing a grapple ability for a fast escape if necessary. Sure, a Warlock has 90% damage reduction while in Weavewalker mode but it eats up your melees and you can’t do anything while in that state except run to cover. That’s not to say it’s not good but it’s no more useful than a CF build. 5. I must disagree on your statement that it pales in survivability to the other subclasses. Make a solid Renewal Grasps build and marvel at how tough you are to kill! Also, Silence and Squall is far superior to Winter’s Wrath and far more versatile. IMO, all three subclasses have solid Stasis neutral games. It’s the supers that are questionable. “iLl tRy aNd kEeP iT sHoRt.” Yeah, I failed miserably. lol.

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  • That last line got me laughing pretty good haha. Well, it's strange...I feel like you used many of the same points I did and somehow came to the exact opposite conclusion on most of those topics. And quick aside, because I feel like you are not showing Solar Warlock the respect it deserves...it is *easily* the best of the 3 Solar classes. If you don't run it often, you should try Dawn Chorus or Sunbracers, get that Resto x2 loop going, and then try to badmouth it lol. One thing we can definitely agree on though is Cyrtarachne's Facade. I also used that in Lightblade, despite several LFG fireteams trying to boot me for not being on Void. So me and a buddy 2-manned it instead. We should game together some time. Maybe there's something I'm missing on our good ol' Hunters. Or maybe you'll see I have a point. =)

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  • [quote]That last line got me laughing pretty good haha. Well, it's strange...I feel like you used many of the same points I did and somehow came to the exact opposite conclusion on most of those topics. And quick aside, because I feel like you are not showing Solar Warlock the respect it deserves...it is *easily* the best of the 3 Solar classes. If you don't run it often, you should try Dawn Chorus or Sunbracers, get that Resto x2 loop going, and then try to badmouth it lol. One thing we can definitely agree on though is Cyrtarachne's Facade. I also used that in Lightblade, despite several LFG fireteams trying to boot me for not being on Void. So me and a buddy 2-manned it instead. We should game together some time. Maybe there's something I'm missing on our good ol' Hunters. Or maybe you'll see I have a point. =)[/quote] Right!? Same here! So many LFG posts with “Be Omni Hunter.” Like, why!? I “Tarzan” through the screeb and moth infested swamp area faster than any Amplified arc build and much faster than a permanent invis Hunter! Hell, by the time my fireteam arrives, I’ve killed the Unstoppable and most of the adds! I’m a Warlock main. Trust me when I say that I know how good Sunbracers are and how much fun Dawn Chorus can be. I’m not arguing that it’s not good, though I’m not going to concede that it has the best Solar kit. However, now we’re really just expressing our opinions as opposed to objective reality. The point is, I believe Hunter builds are far superior than you’re giving them credit but that’s just my opinion. BTW, it’s awesome and refreshing to have a discussion with someone on a forum without them acting like a petulant child or ascribing mal-intent where none exists.

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  • Recently got into hunter again and oh my, I’m just now learning the magic of dynamo on celestial nighthawk. I’ve been MISSING out big time. Any crazy good hunter builds y’all can share oh wise ones ?

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  • Absolutely! Here’s one of my favorites for GMs: Super: Threadrunner (Strand) Gamblers Dodge Grapple Widow’s Silk Ensnaring Slam (or your Aspect of choice) - Thread of Ascent (mostly for fast reloads while proc-ing Woven Mail via Cyrtarachne’s Façade and the +10 Mobility) - Thread of Generation (free grenade energy for more grapples) - Thread of Binding (mostly for the +10 Resilience, though it does help against Champions but feel free to substitute for whatever you like). - Thread of Continuity (to keep targets suspended longer) Exotic: Cyrtarachne’s Façade Stats: 100 Resilience, Mobility, & Grenade if you can mage it. If not, prioritize Resilience, then Grenade. Mods are really up to personal preference, though I run two Grenade Kickstarts. Notes: There is a slight learning curve to it. In end-game content, always start by placing a grapple point on the floor and keep grappling to it to keep Woven Mail up at all times and reload your equipped weapon. Pairs nicely with safe weapons like Wish Ender. I have more aggressive options if you’d like?

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  • I’ll take all you have !!! That definitely seems like a solid build. I am coming from warlock so it’s taking a bit to get used to using my guns more than my abilities lol.

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  • Oh, I got an ability spam one for you! Strand (I swear I got at least two for each of the other subclasses but strand is so fun!) Gambler’s Dodge Grapple Widow’s Silk Threaded Specter - Thread of Ascent (Same reason as before) - Thread of Warding (Easy Woven Mail that’ll make more sense later) - Thread of Evolution (More effective Threadlings… that’s right, this is a Threadling Hunter build!) - Thread of Generation (Same reason as before) Exotic: Sixth Coyote Mods: Hands-On x1 (2 if you’d like), Impact Induction x2, Heavy Handed x1, Font of Endurance (can’t get 100 Resilience but you do you), 2x Strand Weapon Surge, Recuperation x1, Time Dilation x1, & Powerful Attraction x2 Weapons: You’re Strand primary of choice (I use a Hatchling The Immortal), Lord of Wolves (you’ll be up-close and personal), and your Strand heavy weapon of choice [I use a Cataphract GL3 with Vorpal (couldn’t get a Bait & Switch roll and there’s only so much PvP I’m willing to tolerate, lol)]. Notes: This one is more mindless but absurdly powerful and fun! Grapple to target, melee hit/kill, dodge (creating a Threaded Specter that breaks off into Threadlings when destroyed), rinse and repeat. The SMG creates Threadlings, the Lord of Wolves melts anything close to you (with Release the Wolves), and your Heavy helps against bosses. Your grapple/melee kills will yield orbs, your dodge picks them up (granting health and Woven Mail, and boosting the power of your Strand weapons). It’s nuts and so much fun!

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  • Just finished reading, HOLY -blam!-. I like the sound of this one. ALOT.

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  • It’s nuts and rivals any good Strand build on Warlock or Titan. You get to play as recklessly as a Titan with the survivability of a Warlock, all while grappling all over the map like a maniac. There’ll be times where you forget you have guns! Lol.

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