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Destiny 2

Discuss all things Destiny 2.
Edited by Taramafor: 9/15/2022 1:24:21 PM
11

Why raids aren't fun

People yelling at you for making a single mistake about song notes that has zero clues in the game itself other then dying for making just one mistake with zero clues. "Stealth" sections are hugging a wall at super close range of enemies and cheesing it. Everyone else gets things wrong 100 times over, but if YOU make a single mistake you'll get kicked if you're the new guy. There's only one "right" way to do things which limits how people can play. Trying to have fun and experiment is a no go apparently. What's the appeal of raids with conditions like that? "One way alone" isn't teamplay and versatility. A game like SQUAD is teamplay heavy. But isn't this unresonable. MIstakes will get punished. But can be bounced back from if the players losing adapt. D2 can't do that in raids. "Team wipes" don't work well here. It only leads to repeating the same exact course of action over and over without variation. The main flaw I'm seeing is two fold. 1: The punishment for getting a song note incorrect is too harsh. Perhaps spawn a strong mob for a mistake instead while lowering player health. 2: Defend the circles makes more sense. Relic takes some figuring out though. But at least it's there. Seen. Used. Tested. As for the song notes, just how the hell is anyone supposed to figure this out in the game without dying 100 times over? The biggest flaw with these raids is the lack of clues to figure things out IMO. This specifically. At least have the game inform the player what to do somehow when it comes to the song notes. Do a "raid untroduction" quest or something where the ghost informs the player more for the first time. Between dungeons and raids, dungeons are more fun. Even if the bosses do need to have their shields taken down first it's at least done in a way that makes [i]immersive sense[/i]. When it comes to raids, "Sneak past enemies in their face and song notes" are honestly making raids not fun for me. I don't mind a bit of a puzzle, but when it wipes out the whole team for a single mistake that's just too much. Even for me. I'm a masochist that enjoys doing Dark Souls 3 on +8. I play hardest difficulties in games for fun and a challenge. That's saying something. I'm getting something from other games that raids here fail to give me. Raid leader gets on players asses and instead of exploring and experimenting they have to be [i]told[/i] instead of figure things out themselves, unless the team is willing to die 100 times over until they figure it out. Because how else will people figure out the song notes? Isn't this basically forcing team wipes to win if people don't know yet? How is that fun? Hence my "Spawn a strong mob when a mistake is made" idea instead. Have the current notes reset to rety instead of doing it all over again. "Wipe the team" just gets all the people in the raid annoyed, angry and worked up with too much yelling and shouting with people not even knowing why they're dying. Even Battlefield games are known to suffer because of simply respawning over and over. It's not a good solution when mistakes are made. The only reason games like Battlefield get away with that are because on going fights still happen. Battlelines shift and change. That isn't the case here. Nothing changes when the team is wiped. Everything has to be done all over again. And again. And again. And again. Let's say you got a pulse rifle and hit the song notes with three bursts each. Without reloading. While "more experienced" people blame you for not hitting them sooner when THEY could have done it that easy themselves. Even I, as a less experienced raider, am able to come to the conclusion that sniper rifles doing one hit killing isn't as effective because of the long reloads people complain about. Why doesn't the "more expreinced" raider simply use a pulse rifle and do it that easily themselves? Why not use a pistol, or smg, or assault rifle? Is the mindset of "One hit kill" really getting results at times, or does it hold people back and cause them to waste time when they could be triple tapping the fire key three times without a single reload of the weapon? I could go on. My point is if ONE person can do it then you don't need three people hitting song notes in that one location. You do need another person for hitting song notes in another portal though. In vault of glass it forces people into a portal. So even if one person can do it on their own, you're going to get flak for not shooting when they could. What if you don't know the right song note though? What if you just need a moment to THINK before pulling the trigger? This is more down to bad teamplay. However, the way the raid is designed is causing that to happen. There's also the "cage" debuff with the time stop thing in vault of glass. Got to get "cleansed" first (which itself forces the player to be near the team). Then if you got that debuff the player has to get away from the team. Which at least makes some kind of sense. More then the song notes at least. I can't fault this part too much. Debuff status is there. Move around if you got it. So the solution here is at least "visible". It would also help if the game informed the players of who hit what note. Hell, the game could even do with informing the players of notes in the first place. Then people have to figure out the order somehow? Is there even a way to figure it out without dying in the first place when on a timer? At least give the players a clue. And no, word of mouth from other players doesn't count. Display it [i]in the game itself[/i] somehow. Maybe I'm missing something. Even if I am then that's just proof things aren't clear enough. Think of Skyrim dungeons with the animal icons in dungeons. Leave clues like that. Put the clues in the game world. Make sure those clues are found out about in ways other then "having to die" to find out. If someone knows of a way to find out about song notes and what order to hit them in without dying and having to take myself out of the game, please let me know. Compare that to dungeons. Walls turning over. Strange platforming as if you're on LSD or something. We thought we might be doing something wrong then found out we're doing things right. It feels [i]rewarding[/i]. And not because of loot. We don't have to take ourselves out of the game and break immersion. We don't have to be "told" what to do, the clues are there and we figure it out ourselves. Without forced team wipes. That's much more fun. Mobs, while strong, are fair. Bosses too. Nothing is "cheap" or "cheesed". Unlike with raids. I WANT to enjoy raids. As they are, I just can't enjoy them. Mistakes can happen in dungeons but we learn from them more easily. Raids going "Wipe the whole team" just causes people to be toxic and rage ban or rage quit. It's not that raids are "hard". It's that raids are "too linear". Yes, there's only one way to defeat the boss and solve puzzles in dungeons too. But there's more "exploring" and "experimenting" with dungeons. Mistakes are learned from more easily in a dungeon then in a raid. So how can raids be more balanced while encouraging this without wiping out a team? Example: With the stealth section in a raid, teleport the player back to the start of the checkpoint if detected. The others can continue to try and sneak their own way without wiping. Everyone still has to get to the other side regardless. Doesn't that sound more fun and encourage exploring how to stealth properly more? With the threat of a party wipe the ONLY way to do it (in the eyes of those that fear making any mistakes at all. Which is most people) is hugging the wall and cheesing it. That. Is. Not. Fun. There's high ground. Players can try to sneak properly. But if there's the threat of a team wipe then the raid leader is simply too afraid of making [i]any[/i] mistakes. Do it the "right" way or get kicked. That's basically what it boils down too. I'm normally the first to go "Things have to be harsh". A team wipe for a wrong song note or being seen in stealth sections is a bit much though. Make it a [i]punishment[/i]. Not [i]destruction[/i]. There's a difference. Mainly I think the way raids wipe out teams discourages exploring and learning. By no means do I want things dumbed down and casual. I simply think the way raids are handled is discouraging teamplay effectively. It's really hard for people to focus when everyone is shouting and yelling about how the whole team gets wiped for just one mistake. Not to mention a lot of the players are going to be more in their mid twenties (meaning many people have yet to learn patience and get out of one hit kill mindsets). "That enemy that needs a relic shield"? Fine. "That random song note without a clue?" I just don't see how people are supposed to figure that out without dying to find out. Well, that's what I think anyway. What about you guys?
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