Nope. Bungie needs to retcon back to the original arc where they were brothers-in-arms. I don't have an issue with LGBTQ+ people living how they want to live, but you don't sacrifice the best thread between two characters in the game for the sake of politics.
Make new characters instead. It's not hard.
[spoiler]Sorry, all out of salt.[/spoiler]
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So 2, let's be realistic, lesser used characters turning from brothers in arms into more than just that (both in writing and in-universe) is political..? How in the hell does that make any sense? It's a realistic scenario, and it's not like it wasn't foreshadowed at all. Saint literally PERMA-DIED in the Forest trying to find Osiris, so what if it's for romantic reasons or for "battle brother!!!" Reasons, it changes very little in the grand scheme beyond the fact that they date and do the dirty in the bedroom.
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Them being gay isn't political at all. But Bungie shoehorning those two characters into that role with no buildup whatsoever positively [i]smacks[/i] of, "Hey let's kiss up to the LGBTQ+ crowd without bothering to actually put narrative effort into it." I have an issue with lazy storytelling. [spoiler]Sorry, all out of salt.[/spoiler]
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Edited by Soupreem: 9/4/2021 5:03:49 AMTo be entirely fair, there isn't a whole lot different between the battle brothers and gay for each other. Especially considering big reveals like their relationship's intricacies are pretty common among lesser used characters, in which Saint and Osiris around the time they were revealed to be gay weren't used very frequently beyond Saint as the Trials announcer. And reveals like this are as old as time. You know Earthbound? NPC friend of one of the main party was revealed to be gay for said party member YEARS later, where it's only vaguely hinted at in-game/lore. And Osiris x Saint was plausible since that one comic centered around Osiris's exile, since as far as I'm aware, it was never directly deconfirmed.
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Going from nothing to full-bore at the flick of a switch isn't a clever character twist. It's just lazy writing. Reusing assets, to appropriate a popular criticism leveled against Bungie, for a purpose that would have been better suited either by separate, dedicated characters or a slow and [i]evident[/i] buildup between Saint and Osiris. [spoiler]Sorry, all out of salt.[/spoiler]
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[quote]Nope. Bungie needs to retcon back to the original arc where they were brothers-in-arms. I don't have an issue with LGBTQ+ people living how they want to live, but you don't sacrifice the best thread between two characters in the game for the sake of politics. Make new characters instead. It's not hard. [spoiler]Sorry, all out of salt.[/spoiler][/quote] Wait, what is better about them being friends who fought in war that friends who fought in war and became more? That has happened in the history of the human race for thousands of years, and is more interesting than “they are friends who went through war together”.
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There was never any foreshadowing, never any hint that either Saint or Osiris were gay. It was brothers one day and virtually a couple the next. Had they actually done the switch well and built up to it then at that point I'd have no critiques along this line of thinking. I'd still dislike it because I prefer seeing straight characters in stories, but that's a personal opinion/critique and [i]entirely[/i] subjective. Not my call at that point to dispute. That didn't happen though and we're left with...this. [spoiler]Sorry, all out of salt.[/spoiler]
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[quote]There was never any foreshadowing, never any hint that either Saint or Osiris were gay. It was brothers one day and virtually a couple the next. Had they actually done the switch well and built up to it then at that point I'd have no critiques along this line of thinking. I'd still dislike it because I prefer seeing straight characters in stories, but that's a personal opinion/critique and [i]entirely[/i] subjective. Not my call at that point to dispute. That didn't happen though and we're left with...this. [spoiler]Sorry, all out of salt.[/spoiler][/quote] So the only “improvement” is that you don’t like gay characters. That sucks.
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Wrong. Read my statement again. I noted that I would not be raising these objections to the story if Bungie did it well. It's not my place to insert my personal views into my objective critique as to how well Bungie executed [i]their[/i] vision. My point in noting that I personally would be unhappy was to delineate my story-based critiques from my -blam!--based critiques. The former are applicable in this conversation, the latter are not. You dig?? [spoiler]Sorry, all out of salt.[/spoiler]
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[quote]Wrong. Read my statement again. I noted that I would not be raising these objections to the story if Bungie did it well. It's not my place to insert my personal views into my objective critique as to how well Bungie executed [i]their[/i] vision. My point in noting that I personally would be unhappy was to delineate my story-based critiques from my -blam!--based critiques. The former are applicable in this conversation, the latter are not. You dig?? [spoiler]Sorry, all out of salt.[/spoiler][/quote] I can’t dig that what you don’t like about it is the fact the characters are gay. You original reply to the post that I commented on and your reply to my comment both say that the romantic relationship between the characters is what you have a problem with and story building isn’t it (even though it’s been built through a lot of lore), if you would still have an issue even if they included what you consider “good story building” which is also subjective.
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You still aren't understanding, my friend. If Bungie actually built up to have these characters be gay then by all means; let's go for it! But their approach was taken with zero buildup. It had zero emotional grounding and felt like a plot device they threw in to check a box. It's their story to tell. I'm not saying they shouldn't. I'm merely saying they've seriously failed to meet the standards which I think such a relationship deserved. [spoiler]Sorry, all out of salt.[/spoiler]
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[quote]You still aren't understanding, my friend. If Bungie actually built up to have these characters be gay then by all means; let's go for it! But their approach was taken with zero buildup. It had zero emotional grounding and felt like a plot device they threw in to check a box. It's their story to tell. I'm not saying they shouldn't. I'm merely saying they've seriously failed to meet the standards which I think such a relationship deserved. [spoiler]Sorry, all out of salt.[/spoiler][/quote] Two dudes fighting a war together isn’t the best thread between two characters in the game. Even simply Mara Sov and Uldren is more important and interesting. They added lore to the game to create backstory for Saint and Osiris. That’s all they really can do. I understand the premise you’re creating (“it’s bad story telling so I don’t like it”), I really do, but I think that premise is built on the truth that for you to recognize the relationship it has to meet a special criteria. It actually doesn’t. You have already said you wouldn’t accept it even if it met that criteria. I don’t blame or shame you for that, but if “and the helmet stayed on” is enough, so is other lore.
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Dude, stop projecting. You have no idea what my opinions on any of the other relationship threads in the game are, yet you're filling them in and criticizing that phantom version of myself. I'm not holding them to any special criteria. My sole criteria for a relationship is that, if serious, it has to be believably grounded. That's it. Saint and Osiris simply weren't given that attention, because Bungie has essentially been retconning this thread into being, and its galled me ever since because of that. Mara and Uldren, to use your suggestion, have had their dynamic built up since Destiny began. It's been consistent and linear, which makes the twists [i]believable[/i]. If we'd had something...anything...to ground the Saint/Osiris relationship...Dialogue by Osiris, for example, early on in Destiny or even before we went to go rescue Saint in his season...(E.G Osiris: "Saint is more than a brother to me.") then there'd be a basis for this direction. But again, none of that. The timeline has literally been: D1: Saint and Osiris were fellow soldiers. D2 Early: Saint and Osiris were fellow soldiers. D2 Middle: Saint and Osiris were fellow soldiers. D2 Season of the Savior and beyond: Saint and Osiris are lovers. Flipping Ikora seemed more invested in getting Saint back than Osiris did. [spoiler]Sorry, all out of salt.[/spoiler]
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[quote]Dude, stop projecting. You have no idea what my opinions on any of the other relationship threads in the game are, yet you're filling them in and criticizing that phantom version of myself. I'm not holding them to any special criteria. My sole criteria for a relationship is that, if serious, it has to be believably grounded. That's it. Saint and Osiris simply weren't given that attention, because Bungie has essentially been retconning this thread into being, and its galled me ever since because of that. Mara and Uldren, to use your suggestion, have had their dynamic built up since Destiny began. It's been consistent and linear, which makes the twists [i]believable[/i]. If we'd had something...anything...to ground the Saint/Osiris relationship...Dialogue by Osiris, for example, early on in Destiny or even before we went to go rescue Saint in his season...(E.G Osiris: "Saint is more than a brother to me.") then there'd be a basis for this direction. But again, none of that. The timeline has literally been: D1: Saint and Osiris were fellow soldiers. D2 Early: Saint and Osiris were fellow soldiers. D2 Middle: Saint and Osiris were fellow soldiers. D2 Season of the Savior and beyond: Saint and Osiris are lovers. Flipping Ikora seemed more invested in getting Saint back than Osiris did. [spoiler]Sorry, all out of salt.[/spoiler][/quote] Projecting? No just responding to you saying this: [quote] I'd still dislike it because I prefer seeing straight characters in stories, but that's a personal opinion/critique and [i]entirely[/i] subjective[/quote] Stories change, the writers aren’t beholden to past writers’ characterization.
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Yes, you are projecting. You're simultaneously taking that sentence out of context and ignoring half of its contents. Firstly, before saying that you'll note I said it was irrelevant to my current line of attack against Bungie. It was an aside so you'd understand I'm separating my personal views on people being gay from my personal views as to how a story should be constructed. Therefore one cannot be used to discuss the other and vice versa. Secondly, the sentence itself says it's a [i]subjective and personal[/i] criticism. That again means this NOT something I would then use to assault Bungie's method of creating a story. It's again an incomparable line of logic. Here's another example; Ever read the classic book, "The Picture of Dorian Grey"? If you have you'll know that it has a [i]lot[/i] of specific references to the main characters being gay. So obviously they're not people I'd consider role models, [i]but I love that book anyhow[/i]. I love it because it is a fantastic story, but frankly it could not be so if the gay content was removed. In conclusion then, I simply think you're failing to comprehend the construction of my argument against Bungie in this case. I'm not saying this to be mean, but in the hopes you and I can get on the same page. [spoiler]Sorry, all out of salt.[/spoiler]
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[quote]Yes, you are projecting. You're simultaneously taking that sentence out of context and ignoring half of its contents. Firstly, before saying that you'll note I said it was irrelevant to my current line of attack against Bungie. It was an aside so you'd understand I'm separating my personal views on people being gay from my personal views as to how a story should be constructed. Therefore one cannot be used to discuss the other and vice versa. Secondly, the sentence itself says it's a [i]subjective and personal[/i] criticism. That again means this NOT something I would then use to assault Bungie's method of creating a story. It's again an incomparable line of logic. Here's another example; Ever read the classic book, "The Picture of Dorian Grey"? If you have you'll know that it has a [i]lot[/i] of specific references to the main characters being gay. So obviously they're not people I'd consider role models, [i]but I love that book anyhow[/i]. I love it because it is a fantastic story, but frankly it could not be so if the gay content was removed. In conclusion then, I simply think you're failing to comprehend the construction of my argument against Bungie in this case. I'm not saying this to be mean, but in the hopes you and I can get on the same page. [spoiler]Sorry, all out of salt.[/spoiler][/quote] I’m not failing to understand what you’re saying. I don’t accept the false premise. A gothic romance novel wasn’t written by separate teams releasing a chapter at a time, so it’s not a true comparison. It’s cool if we aren’t on the same page, the story is the story.
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Dorian Grey is a comparable example because the sole point in using it was to show I have nothing against a story with gay characters so long as it works. Everything a writing team does from a narrative perspective needs approval from a director or some other single managerial 'choke point'. The onus is on that director to make sure the story is coherent and the elements play nicely together. Shifting the blame from the disparate teams still doesn't excuse the overall failure of the choke point to keep things tidy. They've failed in this way before. The Warmind DLC was notorious for retconning things and generally messing with the story. Saint and Osiris are far from unique in this regard. [spoiler]Sorry, all out of salt.[/spoiler]
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[quote]Dorian Grey is a comparable example because the sole point in using it was to show I have nothing against a story with gay characters so long as it works. Everything a writing team does from a narrative perspective needs approval from a director or some other single managerial 'choke point'. The onus is on that director to make sure the story is coherent and the elements play nicely together. Shifting the blame from the disparate teams still doesn't excuse the overall failure of the choke point to keep things tidy. They've failed in this way before. The Warmind DLC was notorious for retconning things and generally messing with the story. Saint and Osiris are far from unique in this regard. [spoiler]Sorry, all out of salt.[/spoiler][/quote] Bungie hasn’t had a single story director for all of the series, or even just in D2.
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It's not so hard for someone leaving to say, "Here's where we're at, here's where I planned to take this." Then the new guy can look at it and go, "OK, I'm not so much a fan of this, but I can't change it without first doing XYZ." Bungie just flipped a light switch with Osiris and Saint. They needed to spend time gradually increasing the brightness. It was fully within their capability and inexcusable that they didn't. [spoiler]Sorry, all out of salt.[/spoiler]
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[quote]It's not so hard for someone leaving to say, "Here's where we're at, here's where I planned to take this." Then the new guy can look at it and go, "OK, I'm not so much a fan of this, but I can't change it without first doing XYZ." Bungie just flipped a light switch with Osiris and Saint. They needed to spend time gradually increasing the brightness. It was fully within their capability and inexcusable that they didn't. [spoiler]Sorry, all out of salt.[/spoiler][/quote] Maybe, I don’t know how it works for them, but I’m happy with the results and I don’t think there is anything more interesting about them being war guys. Maybe you don’t like the how, and the how could be improved, but the what is fine.
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It has nothing to do with politics. This is always everyone's response and it's so tiring. Bungie is very openly vocal about their support of a lot of "political" things but personally advocating for people's rights and having them be seen isn't really political to me. Also consider that in D1 Bungie was being driven and whipped by Activision and now that they've cut ties with them they are actually able to explore the story and have more in depth character analysis. Regardless of whether anyone here on this fourm likes it or not, it [i]is[/i] written into the story at this point and that is just how it's going to be now.
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It shouldn’t be political, but it is. People love to save face, they do that by following trends that they don’t or didn’t advocate for a year ago. Notice how Bungie only started being vocal once these issues became popular knowledge? That is the exact definition of saving face. Yes, they might believe in this, but if they truly did, then they would have been supportive long before.
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Edited by Spectral_Fossa: 9/2/2021 1:45:50 AMBubgie's team has been supportive before it "became popular" I can't fault you for not attempting to do any kind of research and it's not exactly common knowledge unless you're part of the community, but they've been in support for over 4 years. If need be I'm happy to dig further and see if it goes even further than that. 🤷🏽 https://twitter.com/Bungie/status/1005196191313756160?s=20
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I don’t really follow social media or Bungie very closely so I was not aware that they were supporting it before. But that does not change the fact that they started being much more vocal in the game and in their posts once these issues were becoming more and more political and all over the news. So yes, Bungie supporting and changing what was written in the past is political, especially because they didn’t make a deal of it in the game before. I do not take what people say on social media as canon. Before you claim that they were together before, keep in mind that it’s purely interpretation. I saw it as brotherly love, as a bond forged in war. The lore articles that show this can be seen both ways. So yes, they may have revealed what was happening before, but they might have drastically changed the past. Because they revealed at the time they did, it leads me to think that it was purely political. Also, Saint literally called Osiris “brother” in the Pigeon and the Phoenix lore book, but there is also plenty of evidence for your side. [spoiler]I’m not angry, but as a word of advice, don’t assume the community of someone on the internet who hasn’t said. In this case you were mostly right, but you will make a fool of yourself if you continue to do it and get it wrong.[/spoiler] Most people that I discuss this with go straight to insults and being incapable of seeing other views. Good job being more open-minded then some.
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Nobody's rights were being suppressed when the story was about two comrades-in-arms. Nothing prevented Bungie from introducing any number of characters to represent LGBTQ+ folks if mere representation was their goal. It is my opinion, and they are writing it differently. You're right about that. But if you feel the need to point it out in a tone that says, "Don't bother having this discussion." then you shouldn't have made a public forum post asking for opinions on the matter. Mine is that Bungie is ramming diversity down our throat in a way that is hurting the story. That again does not mean that diversity is bad [i]at all[/i]. I often say that, in media, diversity shouldn't be the goal; it should be the result. Going into a story with the goal of making a diverse cast in fact makes the characters cliche and shallow. Going into a story with the goal of making a cast of richly developed characters though will result in each of them being unique and believable, and their actions doubly so. It's Bungie's story. They can do what they want. But I feel they're hurting their story just so they can check as many demographical boxes as they can, and that's a narrative failure I have to call out. [spoiler]Sorry, all out of salt.[/spoiler]
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Your opening paragraph is where I have most of my issues. It's true that there was no need to advocate for rights as they were not being bothered in this game and I never said there was, but it is still nice to see regardless of what most think. So many are so cynical about it saying it's only for popularity gains. It's sad to think so many people truly believe that a company like this would simply advocate so heavily simply for brownie points. If you haven't I urge you to watch the opening ceremony of the witch Queen stream on twitch which shows the hard work and dedication that Bungie has put into advocating for people's rights in the recent years. And as far as them introducing other LGBT characters in the game, [i]they have.[/i] I feel so many people have the biggest issue with Saint and Osiris because they're supposed to be "these bad4ss grizzled veterans of war" that are basically legends among guardians. Yet no one blinks an eye at Mara and her original Wrath, Eris and Eriana-3, Devrim and his husband and son. And I'm always tempted to mention Oryx but most of the time people do not consider him to fall into the category even though I feel he should. Aurash was born a female and at the introduction of her worm became Oryx, the Taken King. This isn't something that isn't a big deal. Even when his sister, Xivu Arath, took her worm and became a knight she stayed female even though most knights are depicted as males in the lore. These choices [i]are intentional[/i] and it is only when I mention Saint and Osiris that I ever see such disgusting backlash and disregard for the amount of lore they share together.