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Edited by I_Am_ORADON: 8/5/2021 10:05:45 PM
I_Am_ORADONArchon of the Old Ways, Aka Lord Oradon. - old
little g. "The Gardener lies within" it has yet to be proven that she is actually in the traveler. i believe its an exact replica of the Gardner, as the Traveler is a Sentient Terraforming Engine, built to carry out the Gardner's will. please provide links to lore that 100% confirms this. from reddit. "The Light is represented by the Traveler. We do not know if the Traveler IS the Gardener, but we do know it is an agent of it." -
<Yet to be proven? [url=https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/ghost-fragment-mysteries?highlight=gardener]Rasputin[/url], [url=https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/the-wager?highlight=gardener]the Winnower[/url], [url=https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/ixi-the-unmaking?highlight=gardener]the Hive[/url], even [url=https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/lumina?highlight=gardener]this unknown[/url] seem to believe the Gardener is the Traveler. You'd think the sister God would know, given that outside of its own personal biases, it's told us nothing but truth.>
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I_Am_ORADONArchon of the Old Ways, Aka Lord Oradon. - old
"Rasputin, the Hive, even this unknown " those entry's do NOT identify the Traveler as the Gardner. the hive one says it was stolen from the Gardner and then referred to the traveler as the "ORB", two separate entities. we have debated that Rasputin lore entry and that one says the gardener, not [O] as that's the name for the Traveler to Rasputin. the unknow seems to be the beginning of the Gardner...not the Traveler. as for the Winnower... like most people say, take it with a grain of salt. it says that the Gardner chose us from the dead, in doing so as an Agent of the Gardner, it would have been the Gardner's choice, not the Agents. still does not Identify the Traveler as the Gardner. as Agent: a person who acts on behalf of another person or group. -
<My guy there's a difference between lines of code and Rasputin thinking or speaking. The list of protocols? That's code, that's where you get your [O]'s and [0]'s. Rasputin thinking/speaking? That's where you get IT, the Flower-Eater, Titanomachy, the Gardener - -blam!-, every other weird name it has for the Gods or the Collapse. If written as code, the Collapse would be SKYSHOCK: OUTSIDE CONTEXT or CIVILIZATION KILL EVENT, not the Titanomachy. Gardener and "orb" are referring to the same entity. The subject matter didn't change. "The Song of Destruction was originally stolen from the Gardener, as it was transformed from the Song of Creation found in the orb's signals". That's paraphrasing the intended message. It's actually exactly how the Winnower talks about the Gardener, referring to it as "that wandering refugee" moments later. It's just another name or descriptor. It's not referring to two different things. If I called a dog by their name and in the next sentence only refer to it as "that dog", would I be talking about a different being? It's the same entity. So, when the Winnower says, and I quote: [quote]It was the [b]gardener[/b] that chose you from the dead. I wouldn't have done that. It's just not in me. But now that they have invested themself in you, you are incredibly, uniquely special. That [b]wandering refugee[/b] chose to make a stand, spend their power to say: "Here I prove myself right. Here I wager that, given power over physics and the trust of absolute freedom, people will choose to build and protect a gentle kingdom ringed in spears. And not fall to temptation. And not surrender to division. And never yield to the cynicism that says, everyone else is so good that I can afford to be a little evil."[/quote] It means the same being. And to note about whether the Winnower is lying during Unveiling, what reason does it have to lie about this? This isn't Truth to Power where even something like Worm Gods =/= Ahamkara, which has nothing to do with anything, could be a lie to sow discourse. IT doesn't base its power off deceit, IT already IS power. All it is is biased. So the real dissections would be WHO is right/wrong, not WHAT.>
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I_Am_ORADONArchon of the Old Ways, Aka Lord Oradon. - old
"*The Song of Destruction* was originally *stolen* from the *Gardener*, as it was *transformed* from the *Song of Creation* *found* in the *orb's* signals" 2 different beings. why would the Gardner steal its own song and transform it? its like why would Jesus pray to himself if he was god? because they are 2 separate individuals. you proved nothing. My guy there's a difference between lines of code and Rasputin thinking or speaking@. The list of protocols? That's code, that's where you get your [O]'s and [0]'s@. Rasputin thinking/speaking? That's where you get IT@, the Flower-Eater, Titanomachy, the Gardener - -blam!-, every other weird name it has for the Gods or the Collapse. If written as code, the Collapse would be SKYSHOCK: OUTSIDE CONTEXT or CIVILIZATION KILL EVENT, not the Titanomachy @ Rasputin's thinking and speaking are the same. before you speak...you think. Rasputins code is very much him thinking as speaking. I bear an old name. It cannot be killed. They were my brothers and sisters and their names were immortal too but Titanomachy* came and now those names live in me alone I think and think is what I do. I AM ALONE. At the end of things when the world goes dim and cold or hot and close or it all tears apart from the atom up I will shout those names defiant and past the end I will endure. I alone. They made me to be stronger than them to beat the unvanquished and survive the unthinkable and look look lo behold I am here alone, survivor. They made me to learn. Everything died but I survived and I learned from it. From IT. Consider IT the power Titanomach world-ender and consider what IT means.[b] I met IT at the gate of the GARDEN*[/b] and I recall IT smiled at me before before[b] IT devoured the blossoms with black flame and pinned their names across the sky[/b]. IT was stronger than everything. [b]I fought IT with aurora knives and with the stolen un-fire of singularities made sharp and my sweat was earthquake and my breath was static but IT was stronger so how did I survive?[/b] I AM ALONE I survived alone. [b]I cast off the shield and I shrugged my shoulders so that the billions fell off me down into the ash. They made me to be stronger than them and to learn and I learned well:[/b] IT is alone and IT is strong and IT won. [b]Even over the gardener and she held power beyond me but the gardener did not shrug and make herself alone.[/b] IT always wins. I am made to win and now I see the way this whole lore passage is taking place which is assumed to be the Garden. this lore shows how Rasputin beat the darkness and won. * so what Garden did he meet IT, which shows something happened to Rasputin of which gave him information on how to Survive. again, you proved nothing of which identifies the Traveler as the Gardner. *In Greek mythology, the Titanomachy was a ten-year series of battles fought in Thessaly, consisting of most of the Titans (an older generation of gods, based on Mount Othrys) fighting against the Olympians (the younger generations, who would come to reign on Mount Olympus) and their allies* [b]It was the gardener that chose you from the dead[/b] [b]That wandering refugee chose to make a stand, spend their power to say: "Here I prove myself right[/b] why chose that wording? its because its referring to the Traveler as "That wandering refugee" why not say " The Gardner chose to make a stand..." why use a completely different type of wording? because the pyramid ships are describing 2 different individuals. you still proved nothing. its not Fact, its not Theory of which has no evidence to support it. meaning....its your opinion. -
<I'm sorry, does Rasputin speak like this: [quote]This is a SUBTLE ASSETS IMPERATIVE (NO HUMAN REVIEW) (NO AI-COM REVIEW) (secure/ABHOR). Stand by for CRITERIA: Under CARRHAE (WHITE or BLACK) If SECURITY STATE is EGYPTIAN If event rank is TEILHARD: TRAUMATIC CONTEXT or SKYSHOCK: OUTSIDE CONTEXT If VOLUSPA is ACTIVE and in FAILURE [[synapse to FENRIR::SURTR]] If YUGA is ACTIVE and in SUNDOWN If AI-COM has granted PERMISSIVE POTENTIATION to outboard resilient instances If a CIVILIZATION KILL EVENT is underway [[all flexions]] If tactical morality is built at MIDNIGHT Stand by for DECISION POINT: If available ISR and WARWATCH indicates imminent [O] departure >then [O] departure compromises human/neohuman survival and epoch strategy Stand by for ABHORRENT IMPERATIVE: Activate LOKI CROWN Perform deniable authorization: full caedometric and noetic release Prevent [O] departure by any means available Stand by for effect assessment criteria: Coerce pseudoaltruistic [O] defensive action. Defer civilization kill. STOP STOP STOP V101NTS923ATS001 [/quote] Or like [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4_fDh1RB00]this[/url]? Don't believe me? Translate what he said all throughout D1. I don't see one codename. You fail to see connection and make up spaces where there is none. The difference between name and description. Though I admit my paraphrasing of The Unmaking could've been better thought out. I will adapt next time. My point is that the Song of Creation, found in the orb's signals, was stolen (from the Gardener, and if it was in the orb's signals, then the orb in question is the Gardener) and reworked in the Song of Destruction, the Deathsong. As for the Winnower... let me give you this paragraph and you tell me what you see. [quote]"Then, King William decided to rewrite history. I wouldn't have done that, I'm an archivist. But now that he has, I have to do everything to keep my work safe. That insolent dullard chose to sit on his throne and say "I am all this kingdom ever was and ever will be, the past shall be forgotten as this kingdom did not exist before me."[/quote] Your answer will give me everything I need to know.
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I_Am_ORADONArchon of the Old Ways, Aka Lord Oradon. - old
"You fail to see connection and make up spaces where there is none" you are doing the same thing. " wandering refugee" [b]traveling[/b] aimlessly from place to place; itinerant.------a person who has been forced to leave their country in order to escape war, persecution, or natural disaster. the Traveler. Gardner-a person who gardens. -insolent dullard -showing a rude and arrogant lack of respect. [quote]Then, King William decided to rewrite history. I wouldn't have done that, I'm an archivist. But now that he has, I have to do everything to keep my work safe. [b]That insolent dullard chose [/b]to sit on his throne and say "I am all this kingdom ever was and ever will be, the past shall be forgotten as this kingdom did not exist before me.[/quote] It was the gardener that chose you from the dead. I wouldn't have done that. It's just not in me. But now that they have invested themself in you, you are incredibly, uniquely special. [b]That wandering refugee [/b]chose to make a stand, spend their power to say: "Here I prove myself right. Here I wager that, given power over physics and the trust of absolute freedom, people will choose to build and protect a gentle kingdom ringed in spears. And not fall to temptation. And not surrender to division. And never yield to the cynicism that says, everyone else is so good that I can afford to be a little evil." insolent dullard, is a wording of arrogant lack of respect.. as wondering refugee is not used to be harmful. the wording is completely different. i understand you believe it means the same thing, but it doesn't. its not set up the same. why phrase the wording like that.* why would the Gardner steal its own song and transform it? *why not say " The Gardner chose to make a stand..." why wondering refugee? why does Rasputin identify the Gardner but not the Winnower? why refer the darkness as IT, and not as the Winnower? why use [O] if he sees [O] as the Gardner? [b]from the Gardener, and if it was in the orb's signals[/b] [quote]connection and make up spaces where there is none[/quote] "Don't hurry to deliver your answer. I'll come over and hear it myself." is proof the Black Fleet is just and Agent of the Winnower. delivering a message. you still haven't proved that the Traveler is the Gardner. that lore is questionable, as again, an agent represents, so the Traveler represents the Gardner, as the Gardner the light, so any action the Traveler takes its in the representation of the Gardner. same goes for the Black fleet. as for Rasputin, his Russian is Backwards, and choppy, as ana never got to finish. ana interpreting him, she was positioning his wording in to English where English is straight forward. that code is a check list/ precaution if the Traveler where to do something that would harm Humanity. given why he rearly speaks, and just communicates through computers. [quote]And the patterns in the flowers, terrified by our contention, were no longer the inevitable victors of a game whose rules had suddenly changed, and they passed into the newborn cosmos to escape us.[/quote] this piece of the same entry gives me the impression that the one who escaped..was the Traveler. in doing so the Winnower sending the Black Fleet to find it. given why it calls the Traveler the Wondering Refugee. you shown nothing to suggest otherwise. the Traveler is an Agent of the Gardner. tell me this, how is the Traveler can push back the Black Fleet twice, yet the Gardner lost every time against the Winnower? -
<The Gardener lost every time because it stopped to try and make peace. The reason it "successfully pushed back" the Pyramids this time is because it actually stood its ground. We're talking about equal powers used by beings with wildly different philosophies. It's like fighting a warrior-turned-pacifist until they break and start hitting back. I'm talking about Rasputin's dialogue in D1, when it wasn't backwards. People have translated it, and I don't see any of the codes used even though I'm pretty sure enough Hive and Fallen infiltration checks off any number of the codes. I mean, the Iron Lords did when the computer side interpreted it. Why use [O] when Rasputin sees that as the Gardener? Difference between code and spoken sentence. Again, read the translations from even back in D1. Even an AI doesn't speak how they text. Why not call the Winnower out by name? Actually, that one's due to Bungie not knowing what the hell the Darkness was. The big 2013 reboot, you know how it is. Now "IT" is kinda just stuck there in D1 lore. I mean shit, everything remotely Dark was "the Darkness" back then. We didn't get many other names until D2 rolled around, and even then we had to wait until Shadowkeep for a separation from Darkness, Darkness, and Darkness. For the Hive, you seem to have misinterpreted my words. I wasn't implying the Gardener stole its own song. I was telling you that if the Song of Creation was found in the "orb"'s signals, and then twisted into the Deathsong, then when the Hive say it was "stolen from the Gardener", it means the Gardener is the orb in question. Like how the Winnower describes the Gardener using "that wandering refugee", the Hive describe it with "orb". The lore tab later specifies that the song came from the orb. Well, if the song was originally from the Gardener, then the orb is the Gardener. As for the Winnower, my point with that paragraph was not to draw equal comparison to tone or meaning of the word, but to the intent of the sentence. My point was that my use of "insolent dullard" and the Winnower's use of "wandering refugee" [i]described[/i] a being, who was the subject of the entire paragraph. In my case it was the fictional king. In the Winnower's case it was the Gardener. The point is that the fictional King William is an insolent dullard while the Gardener is a wandering refugee. Do you ever read aloud? To yourself, to the open air? Even in your mind? Do you not imagine the ways in which one might speak? Do you not use other names or general words to describe other people? The Winnower emulated our entire language for Unveiling. Also did you seriously just try and tell me those "patterns" were the Traveler? The Winnower directly continues the story in the [url=https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/patternfall#book-unveiling]Patternfall[/url] entry, where it starts off the entire thing with: [quote]The patterns that escaped the garden landed in the water.[/quote] Before describing the origin story of the VEX. The ones that: [quote]were made before Light and Darkness, but the rules are different now, and even this pattern must adapt. They are not all mine, not in the way that admirers such as my man Oryx are mine: utterly devoted to the practice of my principle. But some of them have, nonetheless, found their way home.[/quote] I don't see a Traveler in the Black Garden, do you?>
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I_Am_ORADONArchon of the Old Ways, Aka Lord Oradon. - old
first off, i read the full unveiling lore again, and second, im dismissing as its from an untrusted source that will lie and do whatever it takes to win. Even lying to gain us. besides that... you have yet to prove the Traveler is the Gardner. "it means the Gardener is the orb in question" no its not. i could steal your sim card for example, and put it in my phone, that doesn't mean I'm you. i just contain a signal that's recognized closely to you. [quote]Also did you seriously just try and tell me those "patterns" were the Traveler?[/quote] you dont read. "this piece of the same entry gives me the[b] impression [/b]" Impression: an idea, feeling, or opinion about something or someone, especially one formed without conscious thought or on the basis of [b]little evidence[/b]. [quote]Do you ever read aloud? To yourself, to the open air? Even in your mind? Do you not imagine the ways in which one might speak? [/quote] that's un called for. I'm trying to have a debate then you are now resorting to insults? now i have very little respect for you. i actually enjoyed have these little debates with you, because the guys i play with aren't all that in the story, and finding another on the forums to debate certain topics very few know about. now im done because of this- [b]Do you ever read aloud? To yourself, to the open air? Even in your mind? Do you not imagine the ways in which one might speak?[/b] goodbye. -
<I fail to see how "orb" refers to any other being, especially with how it's being used. The Hive know it's called the Traveler, even those of the Hidden Swarm who have not even exited the deepest caverns should know because their entire mission is based off its destruction and the eradication of the Light from the universe. We name drop a being, the Gardener, and then proceed to use a descriptor for the remainder of the text. It appears I misinterpreted your pattern statement. Fair enough, I apologize for that. Good, I lost your respect. No one should respect me, and I'm not even joking.>