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5/4/2021 5:35:27 PM
53

PVP thoughts from the bottom of the heap

Hi Bungie I wanted to air some thoughts about PVP, and it's not just the usual rant about cheaters etc., well I hope not. Firstly let me start by saying I am a terrible PVP player, like bottom of the heap, but yet you keep putting content in that demands I play PVP, so I do play and it sucks massive amounts of dead penguin dick because, and this is the main point I want to make, you put me in with Flawless and peeps with insane K/D rates, where as I struggle to get mine over 0.3. I honestly want to get better at PVP but if all I do is spawn/die/spawn/die there is not much room to learn, and this is probably 7 or 8 games out of 10. Why on earth do you not have skill based match making? Surly to goodness this would make more sence, let the flawless players play the flawless players, let the 1.3K/D's play themselves and let peeps like me play each other with half a chance of both having a good game, improving and learning how to use the maps. Make it a league system so when you improve you go up a level and play with other people who have improved or a a bit better than you. Give the higher leagues better gear (but FFS also put that gear somewhere I have a chance to get it like GMs) The constant impossible head shots whiles flying and being behind a wall from across the map with a shotgun are, at best AltF4 worthy and at worst a really good reason not to pay for more content. I am told that you had a lot of complaints from good players that they were getting owned by good players, which to me sounds like a balanced game, but when you are a bad player (like me) getting owned by insanely good players virtually every game is, to put it bluntly, -blam!-ing awful. Occasionally I have some real gems of a PvP match, and by that I don't mean I win, what I do mean is it seems balanced and I feel like I am playing in my league rather than the premiership. Come on Bungie, can you honestly say that a skill based system is unfair and beyond you? I can hear some of you saying "just get good" to which I reiterate the point, how do you do that when you get very little chance? Do the kids who are not to quick at maths get better by being plunked into a PhD lecture on modularity theorem for elliptic curves? Do people who are new to sports get good by being thrust into a top tier match? No none of this happens, you start at the bottom and improve over time, some improve rapidly and some not so fast. Of course it works if there are players that challenge your skill but being insta killed is not challenging it's boring and makes you want to just uninstall the game. There is another argument that suggest joining a clan and learn with them, the issue with this is (and there are some good players in my clan) that they are all sick of the cheaters and really don't want to play PvP so they only play with the good players in the clan (obviously not wafting to ruin their hard worked for K/D by having me and I totally understand that) and you only learn so much by being carried which is what happens when you have a few really good players around a really bad player (again like me). In closing, and I realise I am just one voice and everyone will have an opinion on this, but surly everyone would feel better if they were playing against people at a similar level as them? It can't be much fun running around a map insta killing all the bad players with your felwinters etc, as that can't present a challenge to your skill, which is what we are all looking for? It's certainly what I am looking for a challenge and to improve at a game I enjoy. Obviously there are challenges to balancing a game and I just thought I would share my ponderings in the hope that they are ignored and forgotten lol

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  • It is pretty sad that FPS games are an exception to how almost all other "skilled" activities in life are handled... in that all the "elite" players think being good means they EARNED the "RIGHT" to mercilessly stomp people well below their skill level. Literally anything else, you play in tiers or leagues or whatever and take pride in competing with your equals and would be embarrassed to be participating against opponents who are unable to compete with you in a meaningful way.

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    • Basically you wanna ruin the crucible for crucible players do you can enjoy the 4 matches you do for an engram. Gtfoh

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      • You are right - the truth is that CBMM discriminates against older slower PvP players and those with disabilities in favour of the mass of younger players with fast reactions Clearly that is a bad idea - SBMM gives older players a chance to play people like themselves, a much better idea

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        • Why would bungie redesign PVP for players that hate PVP? If you struggle getting a 0.3 KD then you're getting stomped by average and below average players, not the top players you think you're dying to. SBMM doesn't work in Destiny because the player base is small and spread out around the world. This in turn results in all the players that like PVP being stuck in long que times and terrible connection quality in their game. I'm not a flawless player, I barely ever go into trials and I generally get stomped there to even reach 3 wins. However based on my stats overall I'm above average. So for player like me, I get stomped in trials, and I can generally hold my own but have to put in a lot of effort to do well in Survival with SBMM. Now I want to also play crucible and have fun, not sweat all the time, so that's where CBMM control comes in. Sometimes I face ridiculous teams and get called on, other times I'm part of the team dominating, but I get to actually have a good time. PVP should be designed for players who like PVP.

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          • ill run some pvp with ya

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            • Hey Bungie. Y'all got anymore of that skill based matchmaking?

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            • 1. play survival, it has sbmm 2. sbmm sucks for everyone that isnt bottom of the barrel and wouldnt make sense to make the majority have to deal with it when a minority is the only one with the issue. 3. fighting people just as bad as you wont help you improve because youll just never get the mistakes you make punished. thats the reason that ive realized that i always improve more during the times in the game when its cbmm.

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              • Cause the streamers complained so hard that Bungie caved. SBMM is in the game in the Survival Mode. But the PVP player base is so low you are going to struggle everywhere in PvP. Jump back in on May 11th when a lot of the casual crowd will return.

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                • Yes. Agreed 100%. I stay out of PvP because I'm not that great and like you, I don't get any enjoyment or improvement by being farmed by top PvP players. Unfortunately, the top players complained that they couldn't "have a relaxing game" because they always ended up against sweats. Well yeah! When you're really good, you play people who are really good. Sucks, huh? They didn't like that. To them, "having a relaxing game" translates to "farming noobs with very little effort." To people who say that sbmm would not work because there aren't enough players, why do you think there aren't enough players?! At this point bungie needs to do something. PvP is a toxic dumpster fire next to an ammunition factory.

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                  • You want SBMM go play Comp.

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                  • I've said it a million times, i'll say it again. As great as SBMM sounds to players like you, it is literally not functioning in Destiny 2. The player population per platform, per game mode in pvp is simply not nearly high enough to support SBMM. People like me who actually are main pvp players have queue times of 10+ minutes with true SBMM turned on. If this games pvp had 10 times the player pop on the regular, i'd say yes, bring it in but like this? NO. Not only queue times are insane, after waiting for literally 15 minutes to finally get into a match, its the most laggy experience ever, because SBMM almost entirely has to ignore CBMM factors. I am from central Europe and played against south east asian players on the regular with SBMM. It was bad. On top of that every single match was a sweat fiesta. Please guys, think before posting outrages to bring SBMM back. This is not call of duty or apex or fortnite. SBMM already doesn't work in those extremely active pvp games most of the times, how can you expect it to work with this low pvp population in D2? smh. Also, we kinda have SBMM right now. It's called team balancing and already does what you are asking for to some degree. Will you have bad matches? Yes, suck it up, i have those too. Every player of any skill level has players better than them, just keep queuing up and i guarantee you that most of the matches will be playable for you. If you only play 1 or 2 matches, then quit and start crying on the forums, you could just have had bad luck on those 2 and the next 3 matches would have been fine.

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                    • 1
                      Kensington Ave
                      Kensington Ave

                      not really - old

                      Man bungie has to satisfy streamers so they can keep the 10k total twitch viewers. 4K of them are gjake so everyone else is idk 🤷🏾‍♂️

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                    • A couple of the good PVP players in our clan ran teaching sessions in private matches for others in the clan looking to learn/improve. They walked the maps, talked/showed strategies for cover & movement, and most importantly, taught how to work as a team. That last part is key for all game modes (except Rumble) and helps with positioning, movement & when to leave a fight vs go in guns blazing. In short, spend an hour with your good clan mates in a private match, have them walk you through how they play a map or two, and talk about movement & teamwork. Worst case, put on your best Jotuun and have some fun, or play Mayhem where everyone gets blown up all the time.

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                    • Edited by s7venth-column: 5/6/2021 2:50:36 AM
                      Your ranked suggestion is a good idea for comp. I've suggested it multiple times as well. Quickplay should be quick matchmaking and the best possible connection at the time of matchmaking. You mention not having a chance to improve but are you playing with the intent to improve? There are a few things that you can implement that can elevate your game in a very short time. I'll outline a few. 1. Play the meta. This is an obvious one but something that I see below average players ignoring. Playing with meta loadouts will increase your chances of success and will make crucible more fun while you are learning because you are winning more. When you get good at the game, use whatever you want as you'll be able to make it work and still win your engagements. 2. Use cover when moving. I see many new players running in the open and being teamshot immediately, especially in 6vs6. 3. Always keep an eye on the radar or someone will rush you and kill you with a shotty. If people push, backpedal with your shotty out and return fire. 4. Play to the strength of your weapons. If using a 120 and a felwinters for instance, you pretty much have a good coverage of all but 35+ meters. So for instance, don't engage a scout at 40+ meters or a fusion with your felwinters out at 15+ meters. 5. Use pvp focused mods like targeting/unflinching/CWL mods etc. This is just some basic advice that will elevate your game very quickly to a fairly average level. Plenty of other things that you can do if you enjoy pvp and are serious about improving.

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                    • Control was a stack fest last night so I got duality from the vault, put on transversive steps, and went stupid aggro sliding all over the place. I inadvertently completed the chaperone quest so it wasn't a total loss 😂 But I'm still learning and experimenting. I'm normally cautious but learning a new playstyle is good.

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                    • Edited by TJM99: 5/5/2021 12:44:48 AM
                      Destiny's PvP is beyond a state where flicking the switch on Matchmaking for the umpteenth time will help. SBMM consistently fails to do anything meaningful, and on paper, actively punishes success, see literally any example of this from CoD. If you're a mid-tier player, you're literally trapped in Limbo and are the sole sheep to the physcos up top. Being "more equipped" to combat BS doesn't simply make it fair to be the only ones to deal with it while anyone in the safe space get games that are strange to watch. The argument of CBMM rides on the desire for game stability and not every match being balls to the wall, an environment for that suits a competitive mode, something Destiny isn't. Core functionality of PvP is unpleasant, the basic loop is people cheesing each other. It's essentially like what happened with Overwatch, the game's cheesefest got too cheesy and it became utterly unenjoyable unless you were absolutely crushing the other team. This obviously comes at the expense of other people not having a good time and feeling like the game is garbage. Skill stops mattering after a certain extent because Cheese potency has a larger effect on the game. Forsaken to Beyond Light was pretty much-turning PvP into arcade mode because Special weapons pick up ammo like candy on really small maps that are so easy to exploit on such a terribly flawed default game mode like Control. People move too fast and have the shotguns to deliver misery 90% of the time thanks to it. Throw Stasis into the mix now and things just become a full on party mode where you should honestly expect nothing because it's that chaotic. I found myself sweating after 10 games because it was that intense. Blue Ice is just everywhere, none of it makes sense and everything is crazy. The enhanced frame rate on Next Gen actually made it worse I think since Destiny 2 *literally* moves faster the more frames you have. Not everyone can simply handle that level of crazy, and for basic PvP, no one should have to, especially if just trying to progress something that's compelling you to be there and you don't actually want to be there. The amount of cheese in Destiny can elevate someone's perceived skill by tons, which is certainly damning of the idea that CBMM is supposed to be more casual. You can't have casual in chaos parties. To make matters worse, as this chaos ultimately pushes people away because why put yourself through that or really anything in this game, the ingetriy of matches decreases as MM has less to work with at any given time and can't do its job. So yeah, don't hold your hand out to the same back and forth cycle that has done nothing good for the game. It is highly unlikely it would make a positive difference.

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                      • If they are not going to make new pvp maps, they should at least give us more D1 maps. Some of them are already in D2 but there are 31 D1 maps to choose from.

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                      • spawn/die/spawn/die/watch video/private match/spawn/die is the only way to improve

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                        • Edited by oOUTSIDERo62: 5/6/2021 12:38:04 PM
                          Ok, so if the game can recognize skill, at least in some manner, why not try something just a little different? Use the entire pool of players like CBMM does, but either give a skill based handicap to the higher level players, where their weapons do just a bit less damage, or give a buff to the lower skilled where their weapons do just a bit more damage. Maybe do it in quarters. The weapons of the bottom 25% do 25% more damage, the weapons in the top 25% do 25% less damage. This might average out the skill gaps and make the game a bit more fun for the low, while not damaging the fun of the top by too much. Plus you would have the entire pool of players so connections would be better. Of course this would kinda make normal crucible like IB. But it would be more consistent then using light level.

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                        • Be glad that we havent had any quests that have you LOSE progress for dying lately... Those forced me to learn to play defensively to finish them. Just gotta play around with your load out and wep/armor mods to find out what works for you and learning to judge when to engage or run. Resilience stat doesnt seems like it does much, but it can mean the difference between dying and making it behind cover.

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                        • You look cute today

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                          • No SBMM, I don’t play...I have ignored PVP in multiple seasons and don’t miss it anymore. PVP crybabies wanted CBMM fine! Enjoy! If there is no SBMM quick play or IB, this mode can slowly die. Zero interest getting whacked by Felwinter and 120 no lifers. See you in PVE.

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                          • Yeah, but if us SPUDS are not running around in Crucible there's no cannon fodder for the Salty Sweats! Streamers can't have that, so let's get rid of SBMM. Then they will have ample cannon fodder to have a big PP. CBMM is the PITS! It's created more problems with FAIR matchmaking than anything. I understand that I will always be a cellar dweller until CBMM is eradicated and SBMM is restored. What I do now is play Mayhem. I don't give a crap about winning and I don't have to worry about zones. Even a spud like me can bag 10 - 15 kills per game. It gets my bounties done ultra quick so I can GTFO! I'm no masochist so Trials can go where the sun don't shine!

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                            • Most of this sounds like user error. The way you improve in PvP is by [u]staying near your teammates[/u] and providing support fire. You will get kills and have chances to observe how enemy players operate. Learn from your mistakes. Often times, we die because we overextend ourselves and try to lone wolf at a bad moment. As you learn the alternate routes around maps, you will start to see when it's a good time to try and go for a flank with your super or a heavy weapon.

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                              • Why are you so bad? Like, serious question. Is it because you're old and have lost your reaction times? The only way to get better is to practice.

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                              • An issue we have with PvP is that neither CBMM nor SBMM is actually working correctly. I don’t think it ever has to be honest. With many matches I’ve been in it always feels like a big ol pile of randomly selected Guardians. Connection based? Then why am I being matched with Tito from Mexico and Ivan from Russia in the same match? Skill based? Based on what exactly? Cause I run into basement dwelling tryhards all the time now and in the past. If Connection was actually working Peer to Peer wouldn’t be As Bad as it is now. Still a few issues but much smoother. It’s not. If Skill based has ever been On at all then, like I said, what’s with all the Trials thwomper teams?

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