The reason the rewards system is so bad in crucible is because people complained about not being able to get weapons like mountaintop and not forgotten because they weren’t good enough at pvp, now the rewards from pvp are boring and not worth chasing
People need to realize that they are not entitled to all the loot in the game. There have been plenty of god tier weapons that came from difficult pve activities like raids. Last time I checked, they weren’t removing these weapons because people who weren’t good at raids were unable to get them
Also, this emphasis by bungie to have all cosmetics come from eververse is a extremely dumb idea too. The more difficult activities should reward better looking gear than easier activities. So many people loved raiding in D1 because of all the cool armor ornaments that you could earn raiding. So many people loved distinguishing themselves as a person who goes flawless every weekend with ornaments vs someone who just wins a few trials games to get the base armor set.
If you are extremely good at pvp, I should be able to look at your character and see armor/weapons, ornaments, shaders, ghosts, ships, sparrows, emblems, etc. that show me how good you are. Same thing goes for pve activities
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[quote]The reason the rewards system is so bad in crucible is because people complained about not being able to get weapons like mountaintop and not forgotten because they weren’t good enough at pvp, now the rewards from pvp are boring and not worth chasing[/quote] No. The problem is that weapons like those are not within keeping of any sort of "balanced" sandbox. They were overpowered and meta defining. Handing them out preferentially to the best players only made the matter worse. "The Rich Got Richer" (they get both a skill and a gear-based advantage)....then turned around and played GATEKEEPERS. Thus keeping lower-skilled players from getting the weapons they needed to actually be competitive. It is a toxic and DEGENERATIVE play loop. One that ends up destroying any kind of a PVP game that is supposed to be a contest of skill....rather than a contest of build strength. TLDR: The loo sucks in Crucible because Crucible is built on a fatally flawed foundation. You can't have a balanced PVP game that is a test of skill.....that is part of a loot-based RPG, and POWER-FANTASY game.
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People complained because they were pve meta weapons put behind a pvp wall, which they did in D1, as well. I've said this for years but if you remove all rewards, you'll never have to worry about pve players complaining about crucible. Implement a live ranking system with tiered emblems and...you know...go away lol
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Good point. I'd forgotten that they'd become part of the PVE end game meta as well.
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[quote]People need to realize that they are not entitled to all the loot in the game. There have been plenty of god tier weapons that came from difficult pve activities like raids. Last time I checked, they weren’t removing these weapons because people who weren’t good at raids were unable to get them[/quote] The big difference between any gear that comes solely from a PvE activity is that you can "git gud" by learning the mechanics of the activity and the enemies in the activity, and fix your mistakes because attempt #10 has [b]exactly[/b] the same enemies and mechanics as attempt #1, and you always know what you will be facing. In addition, unless you are complete crap at Destiny and can't kill any PvE enemies, you can find experienced players who can trivially carry you through the content, because it's all about completion, not your personal performance. On the other hand, in PvP, you will face completely different "mechanics" and enemies every attempt, the enemies might actually get harder the longer you play (although you might get easier ones, too), and far too many PvP quests are based on personal performance (e.g., precision final blows), so even if you have a god-tier team surrounding you, it might not help you at all.
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This. ...and the fact that its simply competitive. People have a limited pool of talent that they can draw from....and that no amount of practice can improve upon. IOW, NO amount of practice will ever make me a good enough basketball player to beat LeBron James in 1v1. Which is why the issue of CBMM versus SBMM is such a sore subject. LeBron doesn't go around kicking the crap out of high school players in his free time, and doesn't complain that its "unfair" and a "punishment" that he has to play agianst other professionals.
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I don’t see how your comment is relevant. I’m saying that players should be rewarded good gear when accomplishing difficult activities. It doesn’t really matter how difficult it is to reach legend in comp, if you reach legend, you should be rewarded something for doing it.
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[quote]. I’m saying that players should be rewarded good gear when accomplishing difficult activities[/quote] And what he's telling you is the same point I'm telling you. That is a PVE mindset. it works in PVE because the level of challenge is FIXED....and the content is COOPERATIVE and not COMPETITIVE. When you try to hamfist that mindset onto a PVP game that is supposed to be a test of skill? YOU BREAK IT. You break it because you break the balance of the sandbox by throwing in overpowered/meta-defining weapons. You break it a second time by preferentially handing them out to the best players....who now have both a skill AND a gear-based advantage...then turn them loose to curbstomp everyone else. You break it a THIRD time, because those better plaeyrs now act as gatekeepers. So the level of challenge in getting the weapons is now even WORSE than it was before. Because you have to overcome both the skill deficit AND the overpowered gear they are using. Bottomline is that this model of PVP is not working...and it is NEVER going to work. PVP players are unwilling to accept the blend of skill and build strength that is required to win....and it is an anchor around the neck of the game's PVE side. Limiting developer creativity....and kneecapping the game's power fantasy. As the sand box gets tuned to what PVP players will accept...and in pursuit of a "balance" it will NEVER achieve.
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Pvp in any video game is competitive by nature. Every video game that has pvp has meta weapons. Every video game that has pvp has better players that act as gatekeepers. Everyone who enters the crucible already knows and accepts the fact that people with better builds will have an advantage and are aware that it’s not a 100% perfectly balanced arena shooter like Halo. It’s been this way since day 1 and is just part of destiny’s pvp identity. This only becomes an issue when the rewards for being skilled give you an even bigger advantage over players who aren’t as skilled. So this can be simply solved by having cosmetic rewards only or gear that is basically a reskin of pve gear (for example, you can make the exact same build using high stat trials armor as you can using high stat prophecy dungeon armor) So have we come to an agreement? Pvp desperately needs more rewards but due to the issues you’ve presented to me they can only be cosmetic.
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They don’t even have to be cosmetic only, they just have to not be broken. Palindrome is coming back and is most likely just going to be another good hc but it originally came from pvp in d1 so it would make more sense for it to be a comp reward in d2 instead of a nightfall reward. It could comeback and just randomly drop from the end of comp games and when you get to legend you unlock the ability for the adept version to drop. That’s not broken, it’s just giving us a reward.
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[quote]It doesn’t really matter how difficult it is to reach legend in comp, if you reach legend, you should be rewarded something for doing it.[/quote] Yeah, actually, it does matter how difficult it is, at least as far as rewards go. In particular, the skill of the players you face control the difficulty. If every match has the other team quit, you will rocket up the Glory ladder, but that doesn't mean it was difficult. That, of course, was the whole point of my post, which you seem to have missed. PvE has a fixed difficulty for an activity, so the rewards for it can be set based on its difficulty. But, PvP difficulty varies randomly, even in a so-called skill-based playlist, so some players might have an easier time than others, simply because they don't have to complete the activity at the same level of difficulty.
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Well wouldn’t the difficulty of a raid be also variable depending on the other players you are playing with? If a team is under leveled and isn’t coordinated the raid could be very difficult. On the other hand a player could just be ad-clear on every encounter in a stacked team and it would be very easy for them to complete the raid. A player being carried through a raid happens way more often than a players opponents quitting in comp but they still get the raid rewards
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Edited by Kid Backstab: 12/15/2020 4:26:15 PMEverything you said is what I (and @kellygreen2) said before...PvE content is purely co-operative. Having good players on your team helps you complete the goal, even if you aren't good. There's nothing wrong with that, because you get to learn how those good players did it and can try to emulate them the next time you run the content. OTOH, in PvP, having good players on your team can be a detriment to completing the goal, which is almost always a personal objective that requires final blows. It's bad enough having to play against much better PvP players who are actively trying to stop you from completing your goals. In addition, you have to find a set of team mates that is good enough that they can hold their own so that you aren't constantly facing a 1v4 (or worse) while they respawn, but not so good that they get all the kills and mercy the other team. I ran IB with groups from the Destiny 2 PC LFG Discord who asked for "chill" and didn't care about how good you were at killing, as long as you would play the objectives. I got really lucky for the most part, in that our teams did hit the sweet spot for me, and we had enough matches that went the full time so that I could get the kills I needed for bounties and quests. But, we sometimes went on streaks where we would mercy the other team, and even our top slayer didn't have enough time to cast a super. In those matches, I might have an efficiency of 3 or 4, but would get less than 10 total "defeats", and none with my super, so it was bad for my bounty progress. All of this would be fixed if the [b]only[/b] thing that is important in quickplay Crucible—completing bounties and quests—would not be so tied to personal performance. If that changed, the Crucible population would shoot up dramatically. Then, to make top-tier PvP players happy, create truly optional bounties and quests (i.e., ones that do not reward unique weapons or progression/Pinnacles) that [b]do[/b] focus on personal performance. Make those quests reward sparrows, and ships, and ornaments, and more chances at god rolls, and all the other things that people want and can show off to other players.