JavaScript is required to use Bungie.net

Destiny 2

Discuss all things Destiny 2.
Edited by Big Evil Spider: 9/15/2020 1:45:15 PM
91

Why I think you struggle, Bungie

In a nutshell, i see these as your key issues: [b]- Lifeless npcs. Dont care about story - Cut up story. Good narrative but spread so thinly it becomes meaningless - Bungie not communicating meaningfully with community - Respond quickly to nerfs, agonisingly slow to buffs - Adversarial grind model; makes players feel the game is actively working against them. Chore rather than fun.[/b] I'll elaborate: [b][u]NPCs[/u][/b] I see where you were going with it, the lore is all there, the character design and everything. But for so long, they've been unnecessary for the player experience. They stand in one place, they don't move, and after you had to make budget cuts, dialogue sometimes became printed text rather than anything the NPCs actually said. For years, we as players have had scant interaction with NPCs other than to pick up bounties, which doesn't make us invest in or care about that character; they're just an animated decoration in the way of our bounties. The destination NPCs are even worse hit as some destinations became largely irrelevant. Now you're going to remove some locations and kill the NPCs with them, you've flooded several lore texts that speak of these grand sacrifices made by these NPCs, but as players we're left thinking; "who?", as we suddenly get a grand story about a character that in game has stood still offering obsolete gear in a place no-one visits. [b][u]Story[/u][/b] As per the summary above really. I think Destiny has a GREAT story, but because you've wanted to pad it out to stretch an entire year, it means we go literally months without getting anything meaningful. It would be like asking you to read a book, but you only get to read one page every month. You can't possibly feel attached to such a story, and your only option would be to read the whole thing again after you got to that last page. Arguably, to get any player really invested in the story, the best strategy might be to not play at all until the end of a year, just so that you a) care about what's going on, and b) can make sense of it. I get what you've tried to do with the latest stuff revisiting all the missions where Savathun has had an influence. That's a great compromise to at least try to pull it all together before the big reveal next season, but you only need to do that because it's been so long since anyone last interacted with that story, most people had probably forgotten the significance. [b][u]Dev communication[/u][/b] Despite that you had ridealongs once upon a time. Despite the weekly TWABs. Comms feel off. I think that's because you restrict comms to one or two Bungie reps assigned as community managers, rather than letting all your staff publicly communicate with your playerbase. I'm sure they're present on undeclared accounts, but it'd feel more human and more connected to have a better relationship, rather than having to pass the community and devs through some middle-man filter. Having said that, even the filter wouldn't be too bad, but it's ruined by that filter giving stifled "we hear your concerns" that then take months sometimes to see more official actions taken as a result, or "tell us what you don't like about that" and then a following wall of silence when we do tell you what we didn't like. [b][u]Nerfs/buffs[/u][/b] As per summary. You're way too slow to apply balance changes where things could use some love. We could potentially forgive that if that's just the best you could do with the resources you have. But you often prove that it's not the best you can do. Because sometimes there will be nerfs (not even necessarily needed due to game breaking issues) that you suddenly are able to deal with quite quickly. This sucks. Nerfs are perceived as negative to the player experience, and you're able to deliver. Buffs are perceived as positive, but you're agonisingly slow. It makes it on to a to do list, and I'm sure "phase 2" only seems like a short time away in project land, but for a user, that's literally weeks or even months. Other games come out in that time, life changes. For players, those weapons we love (for example), or want to love, aren't just stripes on a gantt chart, they're integral to our experience. It doesn't matter there m that there are alternatives out there, because many of us like "that" gun, the one that's ours that we spent ages trying to get, the one that looks cool with that alternative skin; and it sucks that it doesn't work well and that for the next 4 months or so, we can't play the game in the way we want. You need to be faster. Take more risks with buffs and nerfs. There's no shame in not rigorously testing for weeks to make sure it doesn't upset game balance. We'd much rather have something get buffed out of control one week and nerfed the next in a kind of "whoops....ok we got that wrong!", than a world where it's months of knowing that no change is coming, better or worse. [b][u]Adversarial model[/u][/b] Because you've built the entire game around grind, with a focus on keeping players online for as long as possible in each individual case, it means as players, most game experiences are chasing a carrot on a stick. "You like that handcannon? Well we can see from your data that you use handcannons a lot, and you play ~12 hours per week, so how about we just up the chance of an auto rifle to 70% on these engrams until you've played, say, 13 hours?". It's that whole philosophy that says if you give players what they actually want, then they stop playing. I actually agree with the science. But i think we wouldn't stop playing if we had a better delivered story, a more interactive dev community, more agile changes to keep things fresh. You're only having to keep us grinding because you need to string out the content for as long as possible. And worse, now with "sunsetting", it appears that you want to yank that carrot back out of our guts.... Having the game engine work actively against us to produce grind may be good for player numbers and shareholder reports, but it absolutely sucks as a player experience. It means there's no loyalty built there because there's no player investment. We know that you're just going to take stuff away when it's convenient, or make things harder to obtain in future, and so each time we're less and less likely to come back to play. It's an abusive cycle and isn't fun. Bit of a long post, but meaning to make it for a while. Hope it all makes sense. Peace out.

Posting in language:

 

Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • [quote]In a nutshell, i see these as your key issues: [b]- Lifeless npcs. Dont care about story - Cut up story. Good narrative but spread so thinly it becomes meaningless - Bungie not communicating meaningfully with community - Respond quickly to nerfs, agonisingly slow to buffs - Adversarial grind model; makes players feel the game is actively working against them. Chore rather than fun.[/b] I'll elaborate: [b][u]NPCs[/u][/b] I see where you were going with it, the lore is all there, the character design and everything. But for so long, they've been unnecessary for the player experience. They stand in one place, they don't move, and after you had to make budget cuts, dialogue sometimes became printed text rather than anything the NPCs actually said. For years, we as players have had scant interaction with NPCs other than to pick up bounties, which doesn't make us invest in or care about that character; they're just an animated decoration in the way of our bounties. The destination NPCs are even worse hit as some destinations became largely irrelevant. Now you're going to remove some locations and kill the NPCs with them, you've flooded several lore texts that speak of these grand sacrifices made by these NPCs, but as players we're left thinking; "who?", as we suddenly get a grand story about a character that in game has stood still offering obsolete gear in a place no-one visits. [b][u]Story[/u][/b] As per the summary above really. I think Destiny has a GREAT story, but because you've wanted to pad it out to stretch an entire year, it means we go literally months without getting anything meaningful. It would be like asking you to read a book, but you only get to read one page every month. You can't possibly feel attached to such a story, and your only option would be to read the whole thing again after you got to that last page. Arguably, to get any player really invested in the story, the best strategy might be to not play at all until the end of a year, just so that you a) care about what's going on, and b) can make sense of it. I get what you've tried to do with the latest stuff revisiting all the missions where Savathun has had an influence. That's a great compromise to at least try to pull it all together before the big reveal next season, but you only need to do that because it's been so long since anyone last interacted with that story, most people had probably forgotten the significance. [b][u]Dev communication[/u][/b] Despite that you had ridealongs once upon a time. Despite the weekly TWABs. Comms feel off. I think that's because you restrict comms to one or two Bungie reps assigned as community managers, rather than letting all your staff publicly communicate with your playerbase. I'm sure they're present on undeclared accounts, but it'd feel more human and more connected to have a better relationship, rather than having to pass the community and devs through some middle-man filter. Having said that, even the filter wouldn't be too bad, but it's ruined by that filter giving stifled "we hear your concerns" that then take months sometimes to see more official actions taken as a result, or "tell us what you don't like about that" and then a following wall of silence when we do tell you what we didn't like. [b][u]Nerfs/buffs[/u][/b] As per summary. You're way too slow to apply balance changes where things could use some love. We could potentially forgive that if that's just the best you could do with the resources you have. But you often prove that it's not the best you can do. Because sometimes there will be nerfs (not even necessarily needed due to game breaking issues) that you suddenly are able to deal with quite quickly. This sucks. Nerfs are perceived as negative to the player experience, and you're able to deliver. Buffs are perceived as positive, but you're agonisingly slow. It makes it on to a to do list, and I'm sure "phase 2" only seems like a short time away in project land, but for a user, that's literally weeks or even months. Other games come out in that time, life changes. For players, those weapons we love (for example), or want to love, aren't just stripes on a gantt chart, they're integral to our experience. It doesn't matter there m that there are alternatives out there, because many of us like "that" gun, the one that's ours that we spent ages trying to get, the one that looks cool with that alternative skin; and it sucks that it doesn't work well and that for the next 4 months or so, we can't play the game in the way we want. You need to be faster. Take more risks with buffs and nerfs. There's no shame in not rigorously testing for weeks to make sure it doesn't upset game balance. We'd much rather have something get buffed out of control one week and nerfed the next in a kind of "whoops....ok we got that wrong!", than a world where it's months of knowing that no change is coming, better or worse. [b][u]Adversarial model[/u][/b] Because you've built the entire game around grind, with a focus on keeping players online for as long as possible in each individual case, it means as players, most game experiences are chasing a carrot on a stick. "You like that handcannon? Well we can see from your data that you use handcannons a lot, and you play ~12 hours per week, so how about we just up the chance of an auto rifle to 70% on these engrams until you've played, say, 13 hours?". It's that whole philosophy that says if you give players what they actually want, then they stop playing. I actually agree with the science. But i think we wouldn't stop playing if we had a better delivered story, a more interactive dev community, more agile changes to keep things fresh. You're only having to keep us grinding because you need to string out the content for as long as possible. And worse, now with "sunsetting", it appears that you want to yank that carrot back out of our guts.... Having the game engine work actively against us to produce grind may be good for player numbers and shareholder reports, but it absolutely sucks as a player experience. It means there's no loyalty built there because there's no player investment. We know that you're just going to take stuff away when it's convenient, or make things harder to obtain in future, and so each time we're less and less likely to come back to play. It's an abusive cycle and isn't fun. Bit of a long post, but meaning to make it for a while. Hope it all makes sense. Peace out.[/quote] I have had arguments or discussions with lazy kiddos in the Internet. They live by the mantra of 'work smart,not hard' So its bare minimum work for max reward, Bungo is exactly this. Go into so called work in PJ's ,then think they have PTSD cos the latte machine is broken. Its just screams lazy and bone idle.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

    7 Replies
    • Edited by JazzyPaladin477: 9/15/2020 9:40:30 PM
      They are not struggling. 3 shitty words that explain it all: Minimum Viable Product Look it up. It’s what they teach at business school these days.

      Posting in language:

       

      Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

      3 Replies
      • I'd say the root of all their problems right now the game engine holding the dev team back...

        Posting in language:

         

        Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

        3 Replies
        • I can easily sum up everything you just said and one phrase. Bungie has gotten f****** lazy. Simply put people will buy anything because bungie has put their name on it and bungie knows it so instead of trying like they used to they slap it together with his little effort as possible. there past success has become an anchor around their own nicks dragging them down and yet they can't see it.

          Posting in language:

           

          Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

        • https://destinytracker.com/ Just because you're unhappy doesn't mean that Bungie or the franchise is struggling. Too many other devs are trying--and failing--at their own versions of this game. If it were as easy as many of you think to make a game like this, one of Bungie's many competitors would have done it already and taken all of Destiny's players. They haven't. The issue is that this community has always been a very contentious, very diverse group of gamers who want contradictory things from the game. So it is impossible for one game to make all of them happy.

          Posting in language:

           

          Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

          30 Replies
          • Edited by Corrick II: 9/17/2020 12:38:34 AM
            Grind is a [i]huge[/i] problem right now. Everything just feels like a run to the grocery store. I haven’t felt like an active participant in the major events of the world in a long time, mostly because the major events happen in cutscenes or text. Sure, someone can say “hey those things you did during that season helped do a thing later”, but that’s not being a “part” of something, that’s doing busy work and having the story happen around you. We weren’t actually a part of the pivotal moments, we were just side players. Bungie needs to figure out how to make this game feel less like a job and more like the adventure we all bought into six years ago.

            Posting in language:

             

            Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

          • I agree. Since the start - the game was butchered into 'pieces' and the original creative minds behind Destiny are gone. As for D2, I havent agreed with the direction the game has taken since its release. Such potential but always falling way short.

            Posting in language:

             

            Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

            3 Replies
            • Que the apologists that will simply type “ just leave if you don’t like it” instead of actually realizing you’ve made extremely valid points. It’s sad really. This game has potential but this game is so mismanaged by bungie it’s almost tiresome the amount of times they’ve reverted changes because they can’t stick to one thing. Bravo OP

              Posting in language:

               

              Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

            • [quote]Arguably, to get any player really invested in the story, the best strategy might be to not play at all until the end of a year, just so that you a) care about what's going on, and b) can make sense of it.[/quote] This would be great. But not only does it feel pointless to most players after everyone else has done it (FOMO), they are also vaulting and retiring and sunsetting some or most of that content! :) So it’s not even an option.

              Posting in language:

               

              Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

            • I disagree 100% with everything you claim. Bungie is an exceptional developer and the most communicative group of wonderful people in the world. There game is so great and they always go above and beyond in everything they do. In fact, Destiny 2 is so great that I can't even bring myself to log in anymore because I am not worthy of the greatness that is Destiny 2. I cannot pre order the expansion or buy anything from the greatness of Bungie because my money is not worthy of their greatness. The forums are full of wonderful and informative individuals that have nothing but love for Bungie and are quick to help a fellow guardian out in times of need.

              Posting in language:

               

              Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

              21 Replies
              • And PVP is dog 💩

                Posting in language:

                 

                Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

              • They literaly killed the life of the game when they killed Cayde-6

                Posting in language:

                 

                Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

                7 Replies
                • I completely agree with all your points. Very well done and structured. bump

                  Posting in language:

                   

                  Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

                • I feel one of the larger problems I have with Destiny and in turn Bungie right now would be the lack of action. Many words have been said about how every season and expansion is a "new beginning" and that they are committed to building an evolving world but I feel that's all Destiny is anymore. A waiting game for when things aren't as bad anymore.

                  Posting in language:

                   

                  Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

                • They also don’t really care much anymore, and it shows. 11+ years on the same franchise would do it. The fact there working on another game with another company. The content model changes drastically after how successful forsaken was? I think Bungie gave up long ago. Shadowkeep was a big eye opener, the old D1 gear speaks volumes. And the zero communication and transparency says it all. They are done. Destiny is just a money maker now through the cash shop, payed DLC with minimum effort put in and season pass model.

                  Posting in language:

                   

                  Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

                • The game is just dragging itself along at this point the devs seem to have lost that motivation they had for creation and just stuck with the greed they showed all through out d2 Shadowkeep saw to it that the game become nothing more than a giant cash grab they don't put any effort in the exotic quest anymore, they drop very little, low effort things here and there just to get by each season and Beyond light seems like just another gimmick to keep people interested. The story next year will still be on a drip feed, content will still be scarce and they hope no one will question or figure out the fact that the new "darkness" supers are in fact just re-skins of pre-existing supers with a freeze ability slapped on them. Titan's new behemoth class is just striker titan 2.0, Hunter's new Revenant class share's similarities to blade barrage, and Warlocks shadebinder is just nova bomb with a cane and the freeze ability. I hate to say it but I doubt anything coming out of bungie till they're next game hits will be anything other than just low effort attempts to keep the player base interested with more cheap gimmicks Even that "new" festival of the lost armor in october is nothing but re-skinned trash that they'll sell for $15 dollars a piece The new ghost shells the perks are re-skins, the new armor ornaments re-skinned, The new sparrows re-skinned new ships same thing, the whole damn festival is a cash grab of garbage re-skins and old content that's always the same.damn.thing. has been for 2 years this marks the 3rd year of it. In a meme format to sum it up Me looking at D2: Wait Its all just re-skins Bungie: Always has been

                  Posting in language:

                   

                  Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

                • At the end of the day it's just like any other business. It all comes down to the bottom line and as long as the formula of marketing and development they have is still paying off they won't see any reason to change what they do. The time and energy you put into your post reflects a passion for the game that, unfortunately, will not give you good returns posted here. Ninjas watch the forums whereas the company rarely does because they are far too busy rolling in the obscene piles of money they are making off of this game.

                  Posting in language:

                   

                  Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

                • Since Bungie separated with Activision, the Destiny experience has really gone downhill. I think most of us expected the opposite to be true, which makes the decline so much more apparent. Blame Smith, blame Parsons, blame the purple teletubbie, I don't care. Whatever makes you happy. I just hope whoever put the franchise on this trajectory wakes up soon and rights the ship.

                  Posting in language:

                   

                  Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

                  8 Replies
                  • epic post, especially NPCs and storyline. i have always said, the team behind the scenes, writing the actual story, is extremely talented. it's very integral and full of background and history. but, it's presented haphazardly and in book-form. i have to read, literally READ, the video game i should be playing. the story is so good it could be a novel, or a movie imho, but it's not. it is a video game. but 99% of what my character knows he did not actually experience in the game with me with him. i read it somewhere else. and if i didn't read it somewhere else i honestly would not understand what was going on.

                    Posting in language:

                     

                    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

                    3 Replies
                    • I rolled my eyes at the thread title, but was pleasantly surprised by one of the most cogent and insightful critiques I've seen in quite a long while. Thanks for taking the time to write up and post this. Nicely done.

                      Posting in language:

                       

                      Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

                    • In terms of story we need reasonable resolutions in a reasonable timeframe. Killing Crota then having Oryx come a year later is a great example. Action, consequence, resolution in a years time. Now look at Forsaken. Dreaming City seemed REALLY important for a while. But there was never a reasonable conclusion. We just accepted it was a time loop and haven’t thought about it since. If we touch back on it this fall with the expansion then it’s still pretty late for a conclusion. But it doesn’t look like we are even getting close to the end of that story until next year. I’ve already stopped caring. It stopped being interesting. It isn’t going to improve by next year if you leave it alone like it looks like they are doing.

                      Posting in language:

                       

                      Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

                      4 Replies
                      • Bungie’s response: ...crickets...

                        Posting in language:

                         

                        Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

                      • I don't believe they're struggling because most everything is calculated and you even said it yourself in other words. [quote]Adversarial model[/quote] Things that are planed are not a sigh of struggle. Gaming companies have hired people to look for ways to miniplate the player base, it's been a thing for years now that they have gotten really good at it especially when it comes to kids/teens. The Fortnite model seems to be a thing these days instead of companies making a quality type of game that offers content that we can feel engaged to where our time feels it's being respected. I get games need that grind but there is such a thing called ( taking advantage of the player base ) by way overdoing that grind and barely offering anything in return for whatever for personal reasons. It's actually leaving a bad taste sorta speak for many players that IMO most would take the quality content over quantity content. This company as others know kids/tees will just about accept anything thrown at them because they don't know any better. They think this is the norm and how games should be created, add a shop to that and it's called a game.

                        Posting in language:

                         

                        Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

                      • here's my summary, destiny 2 tries to be so many things, and the only thing it is great at is being a failure in almost every aspect in the game. "core playlist" has not been updated or given a reason to be played. ordeal nightfalls are a great concept but go figure, it wasnt thought all the way through. meaning you are forced to use certain loadouts since not all weapons can use the 3 needed champion mods. its a horrible message to players if your MAIN GO TO ACTIVITY FORCES YOU TO PLAY A WAY YOU DO NOT WANT TO PLAY.

                        Posting in language:

                         

                        Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

                      • Silver is their focus.

                        Posting in language:

                         

                        Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

                      • What game are you comparing Destiny 2 to?

                        Posting in language:

                         

                        Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

                      You are not allowed to view this content.
                      ;
                      preload icon
                      preload icon
                      preload icon