He's completely misguided on this issue. Like a lot of other people, he's bought into the Bungie narrative that the purpose of sunsetting is to bring "balance" to weapons or to "rein in" power. Sunsetting has as much to do with balancing the sandbox as an Allen Wrench does to a Gerbil.
Bungie has balanced (buffed and nerfed) weapons before sunsetting, and they will continue to balance weapons after sunsetting. The fact that anything is OP in the game speaks more to Bungie's design sensibility (or lack thereof) than anything else.
Let's use the two examples he mentions in the video: Revoker and Mountaintop. After the "great panacea" of sunsetting has come to pass, we'll still have droves of Revoker and Mountaintop users in Crucible. Why? Because sunsetting changes absolutely nothing in the vast majority of PvP.
TL;DR Sunsetting is not "balancing", you've been sold a bill of goods.
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Edited by RussellMania: 8/20/2020 6:15:06 AMLuke Smith literally said sunsetting would allow them to make more powerful weapons since they won’t be in the sandbox infinitely. It’s completely possible that they’ll use sunsetting as part of their approach to sandbox balance.
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I think you are more misguided on the video
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The whole point of sunsetting is to allow new types of weapons into play that Bungie can make powerful without the fear of what happened to MT, Recluse , Revoker, Luna’s and NF. It’s not about what goes on in general play, sure you’ll see them in QP, Comp , but Strikes and every other Light Level playlist they’ll be gone. Which I’m happy about. It’s stale, repetitive and strictly certain weapons.
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Edited by GeekCred: 8/19/2020 7:46:44 PMLuna's, NF, and Recluse were balanced (nerfed), which curbed their usage sharply, and across all game modes (in contrast to what Sunsetting would do). This has always been the approach, and is far more effective than casting a wide net and expiring a swath of weapons that aren't overpowered in the process. Furthermore, to selectively expire them from some game modes and not others isn't "balanced" either. Should they continue to remain a problem in Crucible in perpetuity? A real solution would be global. To your other point, Sunsetting doesn't prevent Bungie from releasing new OP weapons. Simply tolerating an OP meta for a year (until it expires) is suboptimal. If something is out of whack it needs timely, directed intervention. In terms of sandbox balancing, we need a scalpel, not a sledgehammer.
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Well maybe you forget one thing, the actual size of the sandbox, sure they would be able to nerf problem weapons, and tbh they should be more active on that because dealing with luna's howl in year two was like dealing with Prometheus lense in the TOT9 laser tag weekend only all the time until they were actually nerfed, but we are dealing with a sandbox in which year that had blue weapons that are still potent today. Frankly, it would be good if they could actually focus on making all weapons viable and make a raid that's more suitable for a sandbox without these weapons. the real kicker is that people are just going to drop these weapons and find the next op thing. Its been like that for a while now.
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Great thought, "a raid that's more suitable for a sandbox without these weapons." They seem to focus so much on making the raids "pinnacle" i.e. difficult that they can't seem to see anything else. Like the fact that such a low percentage of the player base does raids at all. If I ran a company that spent a lot of time on something that well under 10% of my customers wanted, I'd take a look at that thing and try to figure out why it's so unpopular. Then if it can't be fixed or fine-tuned to improve it, toss it and come up with something better that is more appealing.
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The fact as to why raids are so unpopular is because nobody is willing to learn or teach them as there should be. Also, we got this -blam!-ing misconstrued notion in the community that people who play X activity are toxic assholes who never welcome new players, Its been happening since d1 and it does not help new players that almost EVERY SINGLE DAMN POST UNDER THE SUN for raids includes the letters KWTD along with "have X exotics for X" They pray that they can get a raid team together through the LFG instead of actually joining a clan and making some friends. It also does not help that in order to succeed in these raids that bungie has made over the past few years has resulted with them assuming that anyone that raids would be using the best weapons available, not to mention the bullshit token mechanic. I could go on about this for a bit so instead, imma just cut that rant short.
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Actually I recently started putting in the time to do some raids and I enjoy it. However, the teacher(s) make all the difference. My first attempt at Levi ended when half the team had to bail after 2 hours, with few of us really 'getting' the gauntlet thing. Second attempt we got all the way through in less than that. Difference was how well the 'experts' conveyed not only what to do but why. My Scourge learning experience was similar. The fact that the experience requires quality teaching means the whole thing can be just a little too much like a job or a school project for some, especially when the mechanics are pretty obtuse and one person's mistake can cause a wipe. Frankly I think the dungeons are closer to a good fit for most people. Less time commitment and straightforward mechanics that are pretty easy to learn. It's patently unfair to assume everyone can/should "join a clan and make some friends." Suppose I am in a clan with friends but they don't raid. I don't want to leave just to be in a raid clan. So I have to find what I need in the LFG. Some people don't want the 'commitment' of a clan, they just want to play. The game should be supportive of them too. My gripe about raids is that they are elitist in design and thus not realistically accessible to other than hardcores, and that creates a self-perpetuating unpopularity problem. Make them more fun and less detail-nit-picky.
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Trust me there are some clans out there who's only commitment is to play the game and drop in the discord and say hello, Plus if i was to recommend a good raid to start with that is not mechanic heavy I would say the best by far is scourge of the past. Easy mechanics and it's really fun especially on the sparrow part. I do not know how many people in your clan actually want to raid or have the time for it. I also agree with your last point especially about the part of making raids more enjoyable and less nitpicky . If they made more simple raids like SOTP and made them similar to the dungeons only longer then that would be perfect.
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Agreed, I like Scourge.
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I don't disagree. The game's far from balanced, and they don't do enough to try to balance it.
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Plus it does not help is that they change the game playlists to fit that meta. I mean why not have all the crucible maps in the game and then just add map voting and freelance pvp for all modes Also, things like the halo forge would be welcome in my book, seeing as the op original post is about cross i am going to bring up the LFG farm idea and also add the forge idea to that so you can make custom games with custom maps. Im sorry but I would rather play some silly game mode like fat kid from halo then the repetitive base crucible playlists, the only ones I actually have fun is mayhem, (this does not include trials or iron banner I may enjoy those game modes but sometimes they can be annoying) I'm just glad i got the triumph for mmxx done for it, and the boots will come soon as well. the reason why pvp isn't fun is because its .... so bland and basic bread n butter pvp.
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If that were the case, why introduce retirement to begin with? The entire idea that was sold to us was "Every era has to come to an end", which is why the term 'retirement' was dressed up in a nice suit and tie and given the name 'sunsetting' instead. The sun has to set on a Meta eventually. This isn't Magic the Gathering, this is a video game. In the real world, you can't 'correct' or 'balance' certain things, like 'Counterspell' or 'Serra Angel', as these cards are physical objects and Wizards of the Coast cannot come to your house and scribble new text onto your card. This is why retiring cards in that game makes sense. Those cards are so powerful and there aren't any clean or effective ways to deal with those cards. Destiny is a video game, comprised of 0s and 1s, pixels of various colors, and acoustic vibrations to create sounds and voices. If Bungie so desired, they could change a single number, letter, or string to change the functionality of Mountaintop. Since Bungie can do this, why retire the gear at all instead of balancing it? Destiny isn't all about PvP. Believe it or not, there are these things called 'Raids' as well, which is how people like myself find enjoyment. I was about to start raiding, I was getting all geared up, got my armor fully masterworked, got the Exotics and Catalysts, I was set. Then I kinda gave up because, you know, the rewards from these high level activities weren't worth the effort anymore since they could expire. And because things can expire now, there's no reason to try and become stronger. Finally, going back to the whole idea of a 'Meta', not everything has to constantly shift around every 3 months or whatever. What's the point in trying to learn how to master, for example, Ryu from Street Fighter, if in 3 months Capcom decides that Ryu is to strong and needs to be retired from the game? Why should I bother trying to put effort into that? Maybe Capcom decides to nerf Ryu, and I have to relearn how to play Ryu, but at least I can still compete at EVO, or Capcom Pro Tour, or Red Bull, or any other tournament. Will my Ryu be as effective as Chug-Li? Maybe, maybe not, but at least I still have the knowledge and can build off of that knowledge to make my Ryu the best it can be instead of having to give up playing Ryu. Why should I bother learning how to snipe with Beloved, if Bungie decides that 90 RPM snipers shouldn't be introduced for a year? Nerf Beloved, or 90s in general, but at least I can take my Beloved to an end game raid and do well with it.
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Edited by GeekCred: 8/19/2020 8:19:16 PMMy opinion on the real reasons for sunsetting/retirement and seasonal power level increases are pretty simple. They are a mechanism for Bungie to get player hours up in perpetuity. They don't have to entice you with actual content to get you play if you'll play because you're in a constant loop of attaining power level (that you've lost from a previous season) and gear (in many cases gear you already have). You're right, there's very little reason to masterwork armor now. Every three months a new set of armor will drop that will accept the latest artifact mods (which your current set will be incompatible with), thus rendering it far less useful, if not obsolete. FWIW, I'm actually not for "Era defining" weapons either. This implies that there is a gross imbalance that compels one to use it. But the reality is there has never been a balance across all archetypes going back to the beginning of D1, and there's no reason to believe there ever will be one. In light of that, a shifting meta at least affords some hope that we'll be able to use a primary other than hand cannons. Not optimal by any means, but preferable to a state of perpetual imbalance (for one archetype).
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You're probably right. They crassly want to coerce you into grinding anew for stuff to replace the sunsetted stuff you had already ground for. They probably think they are geniuses for coming up with the idea. A handful of careful nerfs would have been much too efficient...
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tbh I would not be surprised if they were reworking the armor system again. Lets be honest if armor 2.0 did not require armor upgrades from stupid sources or increased the rate of MW core drops by a -blam!- load, then it would have been received much better. Ascendant shards did not work in d1 what made Luke Smith think they would work here.