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6/29/2020 5:50:25 PM
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To people who still defend sunsetting: why?

I'm not even hating; give me a logical reason why sunsetting, after what we've seen from this season, is still a good idea. All the nay-sayers said that Bungie would simply use sunsetting to make us regrind for the same weapons, and that's exactly what they did. They didn't even bother to update the perk trees for these "reissued" guns to include the new perks, they're literally the exact same gun but with a different symbol on it's picture. They couldn't even wait 1 full season to start with this bullshit and people still think Bungie is doing this for a just cause?? It doesn't make sense to me at all. Why would anyone still trust Bungie when they completely lied about their intentions?
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  • I fundamentally agree with sunsetting, but also understand the valid concerns people have. I'll go through my thought process about sunsetting and why I think it is necessary. Additionally, I'll explain my thoughts about why I think bringing back old weapons is in a way "the lesser of two evils", making it acceptable even if there are more ideal options. To start with sunsetting, the best example I can give is Mountaintop/Recluse (bear with me, I know these are both Pinnacle weapons). Even after they have been nerfed, they continue to be the most used weapons in the entirety of the game. If you want examples of this, go to warmind.io and check out the most used weapons in raids, dungeons, and nightfalls. With the exception of Prestige raids where loadouts are curated, Mountaintop/Recluse are at the top of every PVE activity. This goes to show you that if there is a meta option, people will use that meta option. Even excluding Pinnacle weapons, other legendary gear has the same issue to an extent. Without sunsetting, how many people would try getting a replacement for a Rapid Hit/(Multi)Kill Clip Spare Rations? or a DSR/Rampage Summoner? or a Relentless/Whirlwind Sword? We have already obtained 'god rolls' of most weapons in the game, and the only way to replace them is to offer something better, but if you do that for too long, you risk the problem of power creep. Legendary armor has a similar problem where once you get a fully optimized/modded armor set, nothing will replace it unless something better is released. Sunsetting allows for a method of shifting the sandbox/meta without outright nerfing old weapons/mods allowing them to be used in casual content. One of the best advantages to sunsetting that I see is the potential to add more powerful weapons and mods to the game without fear of completely messing up the sandbox. We have already seen this through the Artifact Mods, Seasonal Mods, and weapons like Falling Guillotine. These powerful weapons and mods can exist in an evolving sandbox because they will not last forever, making them much easier to balance. There are two primary concerns I have with sunsetting: 1. The armor grind has typically been a much more arduous endeavor to get an optimized armor set. Given some of the changes in the past couple seasons, I'm feeling optimistic about this becoming less of an issue. I find myself getting 60+ stat rolls reasonably often through Prime Engrams and endgame activities. Other methods such as the Season Pass armor and the Prismatic Recaster focusing help us to obtain new high stat gear sets. In order for armor sunsetting to be acceptable, we need to continue to have ways of obtaining high stat gear. 2. We will be re-issued weapons that were previously sunset, making us re-grind the same weapons. [b][u]I am not a fan of this in principle[/u][/b], I want to make that very clear, I did a literal face palm when I first saw that this was happening. I spent some time thinking about it and trying to develop a better solution, and I ended up making the same decision Bungie did. I first thought about the idea of simply removing all of the re-issued world drops from the game, only keeping the brand new legendary weapons. If you did that, we would receive 6 new legendary weapons this season. We also received 8 new legendary weapons in Season of the Worthy, 12 new weapons in Season of Dawn, and 27 new weapons in Shadowkeep/Season of the Undying. That's over 50 brand new weapons over the course of the year which is at a minimum consistent with the amount of new legendary weapons released in most DLCs in Destiny's history. With sunsetting, which I've given my view on why it's necessary, this means that at any point in time, only 50 weapons would be relevant at any given time, which poses an issue. If more weapons need to be added to the loot pool, either more weapons can be created, or old weapons can be recycled. Ideally, I agree that bringing in new weapons is the better option, even if it is a form of a reskin, but here's the dilemma. I'm not a video game developer, but I suspect making a new weapon does not happen overnight. The weapon needs to be designed aesthetically, play tested, revised, etc. I think it would be reasonable to assume it takes at least one week of development time to design a new weapon (and I suspect that is on the low end). This season, we received 23 re-issued weapons (including Iron Banner), so this would require at least 23 weeks of development time to make brand new weapons to replace them, probably more. If that development time could instead be used to create a new cinematic story mission or improve mechanics for future endgame content, I think it is the lesser of two evils to reuse old weapons. I would personally have preferred re-skins with a slightly altered perk pool, but I understand why using the same weapons could make sense. I think of it as additional 'bonus' loot to make the overall loot grind a little more interesting. A final thing to note which puts things a little bit more into perspective, although this is the first time we have had gear sunsetting on this scale, we have seen forms of sunsetting throughout the life cycle of Destiny. We first saw it in TTK when we could not infuse up D1Y1 gear. We then saw it a second time at D2 launch when we left behind our D1 gear... I mean, the Cabal blew it up... We then saw it a third time in D2Y2 when weapons and armor were significantly reworked. We then saw it a fourth time in D2Y3 with the release of Armor 2.0. If we could constantly bring forward old gear, many of us would still be using our D1Y1 Fatebringer, which detracts from the pursuit of loot in a game like Destiny. In summary, I think sunsetting is necessary and I understand why many of the decisions regarding loot were made. It doesn't necessarily make it the best solution, but I see it as a practical solution. I am optimistic about the positive changes made to loot drops, specifically armor, but they will need to continue in order for sunsetting to be a success moving forward. I understand why people are skeptical and sympathize with their position; if Bungie does not deliver in September, we'll definitely agree on a whole lot more, but again, I'm remaining optimistic. Sincerely, An optimistic crayon-eating, Bungie-supporting Titan

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  • I did and.........sorta still do but I still will defend it IF they don’t reissue the same stuff. If they bring out new stuff then I’m all for it

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    • They should've only sunset pinniclals and reintroduce them as exotics at a later date.

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      • Edited by SirEman80: 6/30/2020 4:20:40 PM
        Sunsetting hasn’t even started yet. This season with the umbral engrams they’ve given players the opportunity to get gear from this year that is no longer aquireable (or very rare... eg gambit weapons) along with focus farming for armor or weapons from this season. Sunsetting for weapons answers the question “why would I change my weapon to anything else that doesn’t kill my enemy faster or more efficiently?” That’s why recluse and mountaintop and other favorites dominate the weapons usage data for over a year now. Making weapons stronger or more efficient ad infinitum is power creep which the end result will be everything one taps or... they have to design activities and enemies to specifically push on pain points and counter those strengths (ie og reckoning designed to basically require well because it was so strong). It also reduces the need for nerfing weapons unless completely broken because they have a lifespan... and also reduces the number of weapons that require testing and balancing for endgame content. It lets weapons be strong for a time and then fade away for something new to come around. Sunsetting armor answers the question “why should I ever change my armor if I have ‘perfect’ stat rolls that I spent time grinding for?”. With transmog coming at some point, the only incentive of getting new armor would have been one set for aesthetic purposes. I didn’t see a lot of players engaging with Warmind cells even though there were a lot of powerful builds you could produce with that mechanic... and I would surmise from the forum posts that it’s because ‘I’ve grinded this perfect rolled armor set and I don’t want to give up a max stat to try a new mechanic. The other thing people never mention is how long a year is in the life of a live service game. Sunsetting gives a year of viability. I don’t think I have anything on my main character older than season of dawn right now except exotics. They are also changing the way that the seasonal mod slot works in armor and giving it a year of viability as well so players can try seasonal builds without sacrificing stat rolls. I could go on about feeling a sense of progression and the limits of shooter game mechanics and a myriad of other things...

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        • One of the reasons I haven’t been playing is because of sun setting. What’s the point in grinding for gear just for it to be taken away? Less content every season. They’re even taking content away and I bet they’re taking away more than they add. It feels like Bungie doesn’t care so if they don’t care then why should I? The game has become a hamster wheel of bounties and extended grinding. I don’t care about titles or any crap like that scarab lord.

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        • Even if not executed well, it will still breathe life into the game. They need to improve the way it works, but the reaction from the community has been ridiculous since before they knew the details. People just want it cancelled entirely, rather than improved, because they don’t understand the value in sunsetting and why it’s a traditional practice in MMO’s. TLDR: could be executed better, but needed, and the community is doing a piss poor job of handling it as usual.

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          • i really dont agree either people grind hard earned time gettin perfect rolls now they are absolete

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          • Revoker goes away. Otherwise, I don't care either way. I don't grind perk rolls because it's not fun. I'll happily use whatever the game gives me that works. It's a shame that my Bygones is going away, but the Gnawing Hunger I got feels alright. Who cares?

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            • I think one big argument is the time taken to obtain these items. Now I’m actually not against sun setting per say. As long as unique items come into the game to replace what’s being taken out. However there is one item that I think points out the big flaw in sunsetting and that’s not forgotten. This item is truly the best of the best in quest rewards. It was meant for the top 1% and is a true reward for those good enough to get it! This is the kind of weapon we strive to earn, and when we do, it feels surreal! Now I understand it got neutered a bit, but it is still very viable and lethal! But the time and skill to obtain this weapon is of the hardest challenge and sunsetting it feels like the incredible skill and talent have been wasted and not even taken into consideration! Luna’s howl would need to be included in my reply because it’s needed to obtain not forgotten, but the other pinnacles don’t have the same time, or skill required to obtain. I know a lot of people don’t have NF, and they feel they may not have the skill to obtain it, and that’s sad that some will never get to experience it. But I can truly say as someone who did grind it out and obtain it, it was the moment I felt most proud of in anything I’ve done in either D1 or D2! That moment is being taken away from me. All the time and effort feels lost now. Others may not care or feel like I’m crying about it, but this is ultimately a consequence of sunsetting, and it does hurt a little!

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            • Edited by Knox Knox: 6/30/2020 7:10:07 PM
              Pardon me folks, I am not defending sunsetting. I'm against sunsetting. But I'll post my opinion here nevertheless for feedback and what not. This company is stubborn. They will do it and they will do it anyways no matter what you say. They've already planned it. I don't know what you guys know about the world but this is how a business works. They will not tell you everything. Sometimes they give out minor details and info but that's only for PR BS. You'll never know what's the truth. Never. That's how the real world works. Sunsetting is not about powercreep. There is no powercreep problem. You know why?. . . Because there will always be a powercreep in the game! Powercreep is built into the system of the game. It always is present. It's called a Metagame. When you introduce a Meta in a game, that itself promotes powercreep. These 2 things go hand in hand together. When you discover a gun is powerful, you will use that gun all the time. Why?. . . Because it is efficient. When you see a much better roll, you will do everything to get it, promote it, and then use it all the time. That's what you call having a Meta and powercreep together at the same time. Sunsetting doesn't change that. If you really know Destiny and you've been playing this game really well. This is still going to happen. The only difference is that they control what the Meta is. They can do that because it only lasts for 1 year. Gears that becomes Meta and has a tendency for powercreep only lasts for 1 year now. They control that, so they control their artificial creativity. Which is giving you the same powerful guns that you feel are new creations but really aren't. That's their solution for their creative gun problem. They cannot give you exceedingly powerful guns over and over. It will break the game. So they decided to control it and give it a life cycle. Just to reintroduce a variety of different guns that are just as equal as the ones you've had before. They may look different and have different archetypes. But they will just have the same effect as the ones you've had before. Different carrot, but they all tastes the same. Now they control that, so they also control you. You are going to be in this perpetual hamster wheel. But now they are dangling different looking carrots in front of you, but when you eat it, they all tastes the same. Lastly, there are hundreds and hundreds of guns in the game. They're gonna make hundreds more. But you could only use 3 at a given time. That's an overwhelming choice. We can't possible use all of them the way that they expected us to. You will always choose the best ones from the lot. That itself is already a Meta/Powercreep combo in the making. It exist in this game. It's meant to happen. They just control it now. Hence, also controlling you. Sunsetting is not the answer. Choice is. It's always our choice out of hundreds of guns. They just decided to limit that by controlling it. Thus, also controlling your Powercreep. There is no Powercreep problem in the game. Powercreep is the name of the game. They just know how to control it now. 2 cents. Cheers!

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            • I think that many people don’t realize that you’re allowed to switch off mountaintop and recluse

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              • If we had gotten destiny 3, you’d lose it all anyways.

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                • “Because it means new weapons”...uuuhhh “Because it gives other weapons a chance to shine”. ..hhmmmm “Because new mods” ...hmm None of those excuses work...I know, go to good old reliable excuse “It’s their game they can do whatever they want. If you don’t like it leave”

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                • I believe that there are a lot less players in favour of sunsetting now that we’ve witnessed that it basically means a regrind for specific guns. The BDF were adamant that the guns being removed needed to go away so players would use others. The problem is that new guns need to be introduced to replace those that are becoming obsolete in end game activities and the new guns need to be good. Not weaker knockoffs. So far this season almost every new weapon(fallen guillotine being the exception) that has been introduced hasn’t been anything special despite the new perks that are available. I don’t want to constantly use Recluse in every Garden Raid but it slays faster then any other SMG and knocks void shields down faster than Gnawing Hunger so why would I use something else? There needs to be good alternative new weapons to replace what is being made obsolete.

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                • My question is why are you still moaning about sunsetting for over a month now? its annoying to see every post moaning about it

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                  • Sunsetting is cool, that's why. Gear that lasts forever is so 2017, get with the times bro.

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                    • the only thing you can count on from bungie is design focused around cheaply developed grinds to retain players as long as possible for maximum micros the entire design nowadays is also focused around manipulating players' addiction to dopamine feedback loops - keep them chasing the reward regardless of the tedium of the activities to get it you can look back at their design changes and see how they are using the playerbase as their ant farm to test our tolerances for grinds at different levels of rewards 'is it fun?' is taking a back seat to 'is it retaining players and /timeplayed because that means more micros'

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                    • Good question. No one has compelled me to see that sunsetting is the best choice. Let me be clear. The “best choice” is arguably something that will A) make players happy, B) make Bungie money. The “for the good of the game” argument only holds if players agree and NO ONE agrees. I don’t see sunsetting doing either A or B.

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                    • question in return. why are people still going on about something that has been a constant in the game since launch? get over it or don't, play or don't. this is how the company runs this game. your gear WILL become irrelevant at some point every time.

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                      • I'm glad to see sunsetting. I actually made a second account earlier this year to enjoy playing with a fresh account. It felt good to try weapons and perks I normally wouldn't bother trying. I think it may welcome new players as well. My only concern is that a year life span may be a bit short, but I'll wait and see before passing judgement. My other account is Uhby_Clone, so you can see for yourself.

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                        • I defended it and I feel stupid for doing so. They are pretty much doing a full reset and it seem like no direction. I'm getting the same rolled weapons with a diffrent shelf life and I think that is just stupid AF.

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                            SYLOKTheDEFILED
                            SYLOKTheDEFILED

                            SYLOK and KEKSIS BFF - old

                            Because this game isn’t serious to me. It’s a get a way from real life where I can come in and shoot shit. I’m guess you could call me a casual, but using the same stuff every season, over and over and over with no end is pretty boring. (Legendaries) With sunsetting it feels like a new start. New builds to potential be in the spotlight, new weapons that are now going to be powerful as they would have a “cap” and don’t need to be balanced or murdered (Recluse, NF Luna’s) At the end of the day we chose to be consumers, and nothing forces us to play or leave. I think the only thing holding people is Time and Ego. No one ever wants to spend time on something and it be a waste, it feels bad. You also don’t want to be lied and lead on by a company. Promotes bad rep, communities and overall environment of the game. But again. Nothing forces you to play. People buy things all the time and they aren’t as they turn out to be. Don’t pre-order unless you want to. Don’t purchase something unless your sure you’ll like it. Wait for reviews. Don bash people for it though. Yes I don’t like that I have to re-grind the same weapons. Yes losing our armor is kinda meh. But really it’s not a huge deal. It’s a game.

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                          • Fanboys will defend anything that Bungie does. Reminds me of the Fallout 76 fanboys. Their argument to everything you say is, "..but, it's fun with friends".

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                          • There isn't one... The type of people who are pushing for it are people who lack self control and complain about being bored of a weapon and yet refuse to equip anything else.

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                          • I'm not surprised by the things guardians are willing to defend around here anymore.

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                          • Sunsetting has been going on since Destiny 1 first launched. The only difference it being more subtle in the past. Sunsetting was done through nerfs. Gear has always been temporary. All the boobs out there begging for nerfs, over the years, just proved to Bungie that sunsetting and temporary loot was okay.

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