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originally posted in: PC Ruined D2. Change My Mind.
5/23/2020 12:54:26 AM
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Huh. Interesting. Tell me more, because apparently I have been misinformed this whole time. See I was led to believe in my experience of playing both PS4 and PC that the problems with D2 were due to the mismanagement of the game by company executives. Quickie tangent here -The launch of D2 was a complete reset with the exception of character models being ported over from D1. A choice made by management, not PC players. -Crucible was gutted and dragged down to a snail's pace even on PC. Because when the game was exclusively on console, people complained until things got nerfed to the point of a sidearm meta. -Trials of the Nine being particularly uninspired in the middle of a garbage state of PvP -Curse of Osiris was clearly an attempt to see if players were paying attention as they were being nickel and dimed, their experience gain dragged dick first through the ocean floor, and literally locking things behind a paywall, ala Faction Rally. -Warmind releasing and proving the studio doesn't know what "meaningful rewards" are in a competitive/notactuallycompetitive environment -Forsaken being solid content yet being a clear indicator that Bungie executives are -blam!-ing wizards at the "You gotta believe us guys, if you put up with a year of lackluster seasons and content drops, we promise we can fix the game" game. By the way this Fall will serve as the 6th time they've managed to pull this off because make no mistake, the community will buy into it no questions asked. -Joker's Wild only handled one aspect of the game but absolutely nothing else and almost nobody liked Gambit at the time. -Shadowkeep hitting with a dull thud and introducing a season pass model that LUKE SMITH ADMITTED WHEN THE STUDIO SPLIT FROM ACTIVISION WOULDNT WORK WITH DESTINY -At the same time as Shadowkeep launches the game goes free to play which practically invited cheaters on all platforms, while also leaving new free to play guardians COMPLETELY CLUELESS WHAT TO DO. -Season of Worthy launches to universal disapproval and reintroduces Trials to an even more unplayable state than when it got removed from the game. -Gear is now getting ready to be sunsetted because the decision makers feel like it not because it was a heavy decision to make that affects the gameplay loop. -If you actually pay attention, information like gear sunsetting is just shit they've already said before, it's just management hoping nobody noticed or bothered calling them out. -Eververse is clearly still where the bulk of the focus goes to because management didnt learn their lesson with the $10 IB emote. Oh but this couldn't possibly be because of these. No its definitely because the game came to PC because god forbid more people get to play the game.
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  • You looked right past what he said, which was accurate. PC version has like 15 video settings. Console has 1, brightness. PC was optimized to run at faster frame rates on PC. Meanwhile the console version has broken HDR which hasn't been fixed since its inception. Most weapons, but especially guns like Recluse, fire so differently between platforms that it doesn't even feel like the same game. FoV to 105 degrees is a freaking game changer compared to base 85 on console. Bungie has poured so many resources into the PC version that it's caused quality on the console version to suffer greatly. I played an EOW raid on PC and it was fine, but on console it's had serious frame drop issues ever since they brought laurels in. It was so bad one night a dude quit on me. Nah dude, you can't dodge it. The PC version of the game might as well be a completely different game for how much more stable, customizable, and different it is from the console version and that means Bungie had to pour some serious resources into it to make the game on PC that much different. Thems facts dude.

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  • You are making a very wild assumption that I didn't pay any attention to what OP said. I literally wouldn't have replied to them if I didn't read it. That's not the way I do things. Nor would I have responded if the OP wasn't legitimately pointing the finger anywhere else but at the problem. You as someone who plays on PC should understand why it is that the game feels so different. Consoles always have been, and always will be, subject to the limitations of the technology that they are built with. Limiting the customization options and visual performance on console is literally the only way the current gen consoles would be able to maintain their 30fps cap. It does not matter how much time and money the company sinks into one platform versus the others because the performance of the game will always be dictated by the technology inside the box. PC's are more powerful, and therefor run smoother, than consoles. Input method drastically changes the way weapons behave in first person shooters. Water is also wet. This is nothing new, nor has it been new since the dawn of time. And if you read every single example of decisions made by Bungie that has had a negative impact on the game, but you still say it's because of what box the game can be played on, then you are hopeless. The game has always been, and will continue to be, unable to reach its legitimate full potential exclusively due to Bungie executives believing their consumers are -blam!-ing stupid, and then turtle-shelling when there is huge backlash.

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  • Edited by AbsolutZeroGI: 5/24/2020 4:45:43 AM
    The thing is you didn't argue anything I said, you just dismissed it based on some sort of "well it's always been that way" Limitations or not, a game running at 30fps shouldn't be frame skipping on EOW nor should it be frame skipping on GoS. It's running at half the FPS already, ffs, that's not limitations of technology, that's poor optimization, a problem pc players don't have. Recluse was nerfed because it was powerful as hell on PC, but the nerf applied to the console version too, something that shouldn't have happened because unlike pc, console Recluse has a rather sizeable kick when you fire it. The kick makes it much harder to sustainably fire than on PC, which balanced out the guns strengths. Bungie basically killed a gun for no reason for console players. Hip firing TLW is vastly harder on console than it is on PC for much the same reason but it was nerfed too. These two things wouldn't have happened if the PC version played like console or vice versa (or if the PC version didn't exist). That's just two more examples on top of the 6 or 7 I've already provided. Borderlands 3 plays at 60fps and has a fov slider on both pc and console (at 4k with hdr, no less), and its existence tanks your entire argument. Sure it took them a while to optimize it but most of those launch issues are gone now. That's what happens when you develop one game that plays the same across every platform, it's easier to fix those sorts of problems and changes make sense regardless of platform. D2, by contrast, runs 2 different versions of the game with mechanics so wildly different that changes to one have unintended and hilariously negative impacts to the other. Since Bungie generally configures this game for pc (and thus, the undisputed minority of the player base but it's also the platform all the streamers play on), it leaves a large number of players unhappy with the direction this game goes in regards to nerfs, game changes, and bug fixes. Those are facts man. You can't wave that off with a "Boys will be boys" argument when other large games don't do it that way anymore.

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  • I have a question for you. If you acknowledge that PC versions of games being different is "How its always been." and claim that that's not a good enough reason to dismiss PC as the culprit for ruining Destiny 2, then why isn't the New Modern Warfare also ruined by PC when it's the exact same case for it? What about DOOM? Halo: The MCC? Apex Legends? Or, literally any other FPS game that has seperate versions for each platform it's launched on? Why is it that only Destiny 2 has been ruined by the fact that it's on PC?

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  • Edited by AbsolutZeroGI: 5/24/2020 11:55:13 PM
    I haven't played Modern Warfare so I don't comment on things I don't know. It's called "being smart enough to know". But let's go with the MCC example. The original was launched on console years ago, was fixed years ago, and plays wonderfully on console and has for a good 2 years now. The PC version came out way later, after they were done with the console version. It was developed right alongside it, so that's a terrible example. Plus, MCC is a complete game. They're not adding content every 3 months, nerfing random crap every 7 days, and complaining about developer burnout as the primary source of their half hearted attempts to ship a playable game that becomes progressively less playable as time goes. I use borderlands 3 as an example because I've played both versions of that, it's in active development, both the PC and console version are developed at the same time, they play identically across platforms and they manage to do it more or less correctly after stumbling out of the gate at launch 8 months ago. In 2020, with consoles capable of pushing 4k/60fps/hdr graphics, there's no freaking reason why Bungie should be shipping a broken product for console, a fixed product for PC, and then maintaining two different versions of the game, complaining about it, and using it as a reason to deliver garbage content. The fact that they spent so many resources making pc such a vastly different experience is the core issue because it's the thing they keep coming back to, developer burnout, something that probably wouldn't happen if both versions of the game played identically.

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  • [quote]here's no freaking reason why Bungie should be shipping a broken product for console, a fixed product for PC, and then maintaining two different versions of the game, complaining about it, and using it as a reason to deliver garbage content.[/quote] So, what you're saying is: BUNGiE is doing this dumb thing where they ship out two versions of the game, an act that other companies can manage, but they cannot and so, rather than it being BUNGiE's fault for continually being bad at doing this, it's PC's fault because it exists and requires more attention than a console does?

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  • Edited by AbsolutZeroGI: 5/25/2020 12:14:45 AM
    Oh I blame both, personally. It's PCs fault because the player base there wouldn't play anything unless it ran at 240fps at 1440p. If Bungie cap locked it at 60fps and it ran the same on both platforms, it would have a 1.1 rating on Steam and everybody would trash on it. PC players are spoiled rotten and act like it. I play PC, I've played with PC players. They look down on console people like they're dirt. It's also Bungie's fault for even attempting a PC version of the game knowing full well that they don't have resources to manage two different versions of the game. I just agreed with OP that the PC version of this game drags the console version down due to the hilarious amount of resources Bungie has to commit in order to keep the 10% of its player base from being crappy people. Nobody asked me what I believed until you did just now.

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  • Edited by TechnoKat: 5/25/2020 1:27:30 AM
    This is going to be fun to pick apart. [quote] It's PCs fault because the player base there wouldn't play anything unless it ran at 240fps at 1440p.[/quote] Nah. It's Consoles fault because consoles can't handle anything above 1080p 30fps. See how stupid that sounds? If you give someone a piece of equipment that can do something impressive, but then tell the person you gave it to that they can only utilize half of that impressive feat that you said it could do, why bother making it so that the impressive feat can be achieved at all? It's like a car. Sure, a Jaguar can do 250mph, but that shit ain't legal and is ultimately pointless. [quote] If Bungie cap locked it at 60fps and it ran the same on both platforms, it would have a 1.1 rating on Steam and everybody would trash on it.[/quote] "These PC players have good equipment, so they're spoiled rotten because if BUNGiE told them they couldn't use their expensive equipment to it's fullest to give them the best experience possible then they would be mad!" Is also a -blam!-ing stupid argument. You're telling me that if your console could handle 4k 120fps, you'd be happy that a company made it so that you couldn't do that in their game just because the other console brand can't do the same and that you were stuck at 1080p 30FPS because of the other console? That's some actual lying-through-the-teeth bullshit if you say yes. [quote]PC players are spoiled rotten and act like it. I play PC, I've played with PC players. They look down on console people like they're dirt.[/quote] PC players are spoiled because companies make games that run as smooth as butter on the latest hardware and the PC players buy that latest hardware to get the best experience and that means that they're spoiled? Newsflash: Having a better experience is the result of putting the time, effort and money in to having better gear. If that makes someone "spoiled" then the fact that you have a house instead of a tent in the woods makes you every bit as "spoiled" as someone with the lastest gaming tech. Since you don't understand what it actually means to be spoiled, I'm going to let you in on a secret. I paid for my PC build. Cost me a little over 3 grand for the best parts on the market about a year ago. I worked every day, nine-to-five, over the course of 8 months to save up and get all the parts I wanted. The fact that I can run Destiny 2 at 4k at all is because I earned it. Spoiled is when 12 year old kid is given the latest console the day it launches because he told his parents that he wants one. Being able to run a game 5x as well as an Xbox is the result of the labor that the person paying for the PC put in to their build. As for the "Looking Down" on console players part, congratulations. Console Players look down on other Console Players. In case you've missed out on the hilarity of every console generation having one side or the other talking mad shit over which one has the better performance and which one has the better exclusives. From a PC Player's point of view, it's like watching a couple of kids fighting over who's got the better toys all while remembering that you've got a Motorcycle in the garage waiting for your babysitting job to end so you can book it down the highway for that sweet adrenaline rush. It's a natural response. Consoles are inferior to most PCs. Even with this new, upcoming generation, neither the PS5 nor the Series X will even come close enough to lay a finger on my PC. Of course I'm going to "look down" on the people who are desperately trying to prove that their inferior object is better than someone else's inferior object because they're both inferior. [quote]It's also Bungie's fault for even attempting a PC version of the game knowing full well that they don't have resources to manage two different versions of the game.[/quote] Again, instead of rightly blaming BUNGiE for their actions, you want to split the blame when the root cause of it all is with BUNGiE. Actually, if anything, you could split the blame with Activision, considering that I'm fairly certain that BUNGiE was content remaining on Consoles, considering that they haven't had any experience with the PC Architecture since 2001 when they ported HALO: CE on to PC that one time. But, instead, you want to blame the superior hardware for daring to exist and be superior? How Dare PC exist and be better, require more attention and provide better results than the current generation of Consoles? [quote]I just agreed with OP that the PC version of this game drags the console version down due to the hilarious amount of resources Bungie has to commit in order to keep the 10% of its player base from being crappy people.[/quote] Again, instead of blaming the company that can't do their jobs right, you're going to blame the other platform that you're not playing on, and all of the people on that platform for daring to have a version of the game that, quite honestly, almost nobody asked for? Do you also blame any younger siblings you may-or-may-not have had for the the fact that your icecream cone wasn't a triple scoop because your parents only had enough to get both of you double scoops and they dared to want icecream too? [quote]Nobody asked me what I believed until you did just now.[/quote] That's because your opinion, as expressed from the very start, is an untenable fallacy. It's an opinion rooted in bad faith, the assumption that "if PC didn't exist, Destiny 2 would be better." Nobody cares what you believe when you're wrong from the get go. Hell, even what I did, was a form of "Sealioning". I knew from the start that you had a wrong answer and that, whatever reasoning you have for your incorrect belief, was going to be flawed through and through. The point here, is to see if you, after having to actually stop and think about it, will realize how dumb you sound, how entitled you sound when you say what you have said.

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  • Edited by AbsolutZeroGI: 5/25/2020 1:33:44 AM
    I was gonna read your response but after seeing "console can't run at 1080p at 30fps", I realized I was talking to an idiot. Especially since virtually every console game runs at 4k/30fps/hdr these days...and many console games run at 60fps, like BL3 and Halo 5 along with that 4k and HDR, something 99% of pc games can't do. Consoles can run games just fine when the developer isn't ignoring them for their pc (read: streamer) crowd because those people are so needy and spiteful that they'll destroy a game developer if they aren't specifically catered to. If your first sentence is factually wrong, there's no reason to read the rest of it. Get your final dig in and have a nice life dude.

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  • Edited by TechnoKat: 5/25/2020 1:33:54 AM
    That's a question you might want to ask yourself. Why did I bother reading anything you had to say when your very first sentence was wrong? But, allow me to apologize for not knowing that the current console generation actually managed to achieve more than 1080p. I don't keep up with them, considering the only thing I need to know is what my own hardware is capable of. But since you've closed your ears to the last post, let me wrap up this farce of yours with a TL;DR for you. [b]TL;DR: If you actually think that PC drags down anything simply by existing and being better than a console, I don't think there's any hope for you.[/b]

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  • I didn't say simply by existing. I explained repeatedly, using many examples, of why it does and every single of them are true. Look at nier automata. PC version was identical to the console version but it wasn't 240fps with flawless execution so those dopes considered the game "broken".

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  • [quote]I didn't say simply by existing. I explained repeatedly, using many examples, of why it does and every single of them are true.[/quote] Except, and there's this really, really big thing you have to understand. You're wrong from the get go. And I've explained, quite clearly, that you are, indeed, wrong. NEiR was not broken on console. It was not broken on PC. Ergo, it is not an example of a game being broken on consoles by mere virtue of having a PC counterpart. What you've given an example of is a minority of people expressing disappointment with the fact that a game they liked had its performance limited because Consoles couldn't handle the same level of performance as their PCs, instead of having two seperate versions for consoles and PC in which both versions of the game could run at the maximum for their respective hardware and not an example of a game shipping in a lesser quality because there was a PC version involved. What I gather from all of this is that you play on Consoles and are tired of constantly being reminded that your box can't do the same thing that a better box can do, and that you're expressing your frustration by blaming the better box for things that happen with your box. Which, I have to go out of my way to say, is pretty friggen dumb. If you can offer me an example of a modern game that has actively had its console version ruined because of the PC version of the game, I will happily show you why the fault actually lies with the developer of that game and not the boogeyman in your closet with the "PC Masterrace" glow-in-the-dark shirt.

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  • If the game running at 30 fps shouldn't be frame skipping, how is that not indicative that consoles are not capable of consistent performance due to their components? PC players don't have a problem with optimization because the hardware doesn't have the same limitations. Recluse was broken period. It was universally excepted by the player base to be a problem because you didn't even have to aim at the head. You can also use the phrase "recoil" more people know what it means than you seem to believe. Problem is, even in D1 recoil has been a thing players have just grown to deal with. I have seen many players, streamer or not (since you apparently have some hate boner for them) who have been able to manage recoil on console. As for TLW, up until the nerf it received, and even since, few if any players actually hip fired it. I have seen footage multiple times of TLW recoil being a non-factor in console gameplay. I will give you a fair point to the Borderlands 3 argument. What I will ask you to consider is that if Gearbox chose to develop Borderlands to run the same across all platforms, yet Bungie didn't, then how is it the platform's fault that the game runs like shit? You could just as easily say that the game's engine is the hindrance in this case. In which case, the resources being put in to make changes wouldn't matter anyway because even if the hardware isn't the problem, it's Bungie's stubbornness to use better tools. Something Gearbox apparently had no problem shelling out to have access to. Nothing you've typed here has actually tanked any of my points. Everything that happens in Destiny is a decision by the company to leave the game in an unfavorable state. Even worse is the fact that they seem to be completely aware of this and choose to do nothing.

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  • Edited by AbsolutZeroGI: 5/25/2020 12:10:16 AM
    For starters, if the console can't run at 30fps without lagging, then how do so many games do it? BL3 and Halo 5 are examples, they run at 60fps, 4k, and hdr. Halo 5 came out before Destiny 2 and ran at 60fps back on older Xbox consoles too, just not at 4k and hdr (actual limitations of the older consoles. If Bungie had developed the game on the same platform and it ran the same on both, then a lot more of their nerfs would make sense, they would have to make fewer of them, their QA testing would be simpler and therefore faster. Bungie's prime reason for delivering half baked content is because they're all burnt out. The company has said so on numerous occasions and it's easy to find the quotes. If they didn't have to maintain 2 different versions of the game (the better, more polished of which is only played by about 10% of players) then it would likely and largely reduce the amount of time they gotta spend doing redundant crap which would reduce their burnout and improve productivity. Since PC obviously has better optimization and is less broken, it's obviously the one Bungie spends all of its time working on. That leaves 90% of people on the console version with hilariously broken (and getting worse) issues. We can't even kill bathers in Leviathan with a shotgun anymore. It bugs out and they don't die. And the streamer thing. They're all on PC, they call for nerfs constantly, and Bungie gears a lot of their content toward them, hence the super long, streaker friendly grinds that normal ass people can't keep up with. They're unlikeable unless you no life this game and since that's an even smaller portion of the player base, that's another vector Bungie pays too much attention to.

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  • Nah man, it's easier to blame a scape goat and talk about the good old days. Meanwhile we can just ignore how the game is a complete mess and is practically unplayable on consoles, and has been for a long time. How long does it take for a PS4 or xbox one to open a the inventory again?

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  • Takes like 10-20 seconds to load the menu, then 5-10 more seconds to swap a weapon, and god forbid you to swap loadouts mid match without getting spawn killed. But sure, it’s always PC’s fault

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  • God some of these console players seem to forget or never experienced the pain that was the inventory in D1 on xbox 360 and ps3 literally 30 seconds or so. It's the hardware limiting them with how big the game is getting.

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  • Comparing D2 on an Xbox One to D1 on an Xbox 360 is like comparing the FF7 remake on PS4 to FF7 on PS1. Don't be stupid.

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  • [quote]God some of these console players seem to forget or never experienced the pain that was the inventory in D1 on xbox 360 and ps3 literally 30 seconds or so. It's the hardware limiting them with how big the game is getting.[/quote] It has nothing to do with the game size. It's the shitty archaic game engine that is from like Halo Reach. Make no mistake if they used literally any other engine the game would load waaaaaay faster.

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  • 2 things is hard drive speed and the cpu speed (technically apu for consoles cpus with integrated graphics) those 2 effect game load time the most, the current consoles both have slow hard drives(hard drives slow down over time as well) and the low frequency apu's in the consoles(1.6ghz - 1.75ghz) compared to average pc part doing more than 3 ghz for the past 10 or so years. Can't wait for people to get there hands on the new consoles. The game engine is old I can agree with that but that is aside from the consoles being under powered at launch.

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