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5/22/2020 9:24:02 PM
16

We Need to Stop Viewing the Gardener and Winnower as Political Opponents - The Answers Should Be Obvious

<Anyone else notice how, since Forsaken, we've been sort of "walking the line between Light and Dark"? How we're clearly good guys but we went out of our way to get revenge on Uldren while Ghost questioned our reasoning? How we do stuff like Gambit despite that actually being a ploy to draw in people who only desire power (the ignorant: Dark Edition) and kill them so that we can have people who understand balance in power and the ignorant (Light Edition)? Well, I'm here to tell you what you either already know, have heard ME tell you, have heard OTHERS tell you, or what Shin Malphur and the OG Dredgens have told you in the lore books - that line is worth walking on and deviating from it is absolute tomfoolery from a power perspective, but not from an army perspective. We should really stick to the City, and by proxy (keep that phrasing in mind) the Traveler. But why? Well, let's talk about Gods. [u][b]THE GARDENER[/b][/u] So, eons ago when the Gardener made life a thing, it became tired of the same pattern winning. The Vex represent that pattern to a T, so whatever their goal of Convergence leads to, you got the idea. Their goal also falls in line with the Winnower's ideology, see the conflict there? The Gardener introduced itself into the game as a way to promote diversity. It wanted a different pattern to survive, one that could essentially cheat its way to victory. You heard me, "cheat". If I'm so adamant about sticking with humanity, the City, and even the Traveler, why would I call life's use of its ability "cheating"? Well, because the Traveler is dead wrong about how the universe works. At the very least, the use of its power will only delay the inevitable, when either a stronger species -blam!-s them up or the universe undergoes heat death and wipes them out. In the extreme, Light will overrun the universe and everything will be essentially Communism 2 - Electric Boogaloo. To sum up the extreme outcome: [quote]But imagine the abomination of a world where nothing can end and no choice can be preferred to any other. Imagine the things that would suffer and never die. Imagine the lies that would flourish without context or corrective.[/quote] BUT, and I cannot stress that enough, BUT - The Traveler is not EVIL (at least not be standard definition). The Traveler can be SELFISH, and it is inherently BENEVOLENT, but it is not EVIL. It may be BAD (as in not going a good job), but not MALEVOLENT. You get me? Let me explain. Sometime after this universe was created, the Gardener built itself (or had someone else build) a mechanical shell. This lead to the Traveler ball we have hanging over the City right now. It's been that way since the Fundament days, probably even before. Hell, the orb wasn't even damaged before the first Collapse, but how? The Darkness has been chasing it since the dawn of time, and even actively resisted it when trapped in Fundament. Well, the Traveler fled from a lot of worlds it uplifted. The most notable case here are the Fallen, who had the Traveler right before us. It's done this to many worlds before it, but this time it stayed. Yes, it STAYED and fought back against the Darkness when it attacked this system. I don't know why it ultimately decided to stay this time, but there are a number of factors to consider. - The Traveler DOES care about life, even if it has abandoned many a society before it came to Sol - It cares about its work (felt grief when it watched all that it had done during the Golden Age get UNDONE by the Deep) - It decided to stay in Sol, a place where it stated it would "fight and win" - It decided it needed to rely on its followers now (hence the Ghosts and Guardians) - It doesn't WANT to abandon its creations, but self-preservation or fear scares it into doing so - Even if it did want to escape Sol, something about the Darkness or the system kept it in place (this was something that caused the actual Gardener pain, so something paracausal) The Dreams of Alpha Lupi and Constellations reveal quite a bit. But I can hear some ask if Rasputin DID try and keep it here, so I'll briefly go on that. [spoiler]- The Exodus Green reported a heavy weapons discharge around the Traveler's last known location on Earth at the time of the Collapse - Rasputin had numerous measures in place in case it NEEDED to keep the Traveler here - Despite those countermeasures being listed, the grimoire card (Ghost Fragment: Rasputin 5) was merely that. The lore tab for the Exotic ship (unsecured/OUTCRY) states that the Traveler didn't meet the criteria necessary - As such, while the weapons discharge may have been from Rasputin (he did have total military control), the weapons were not meant to hurt the Traveler. Cut concepts for the Traveler's Dream show the Pyramids swarming the Traveler during the Collapse, so the "aurora knives" (according to Rasputin, this is the weapon he fought the Darkness with until deciding to hide) were likely intended for the Dark. - Rasputin's Valkyries couldn't damage an already-damaged shard of the Traveler approximately 2-3 meters in height. All it did was shave Blight off of it. These particular Valkyries were fired from low orbit, meaning they should've done significant damage. Instead, nothing. - Conclusion: Rasputin has no power against the Gods, even if he could've injured the Traveler, he did not deem it necessary[/spoiler] Now, here's where it gets a little tricky. The Traveler actually wanted to leave during the Red War out of fear, however, it did not wake up until nearly a month after it began. Not only that, but the Traveler urged us and us specifically to regain our Light. It stayed, and only woke up when Ghaul started draining its Light, which is the equivalent of draining a coma patient's blood. Given that it hasn't run away since despite CLEAR warning that the Darkness is coming back, it seems pretty intent to stay. My point is that the Traveler, while having the wrong views about the universe, is a benevolent force that shouldn't be abandoned at the drop of a hat. Its actions have been a little fuzzy, but its intent, especially now, seems to be clear. This is why I advocate for staying with the Gardener (half-way) and the City it protects. Yes, we're in the wrong by proxy, but the Traveler is like a mother figure who's also a recovering drug addict. Right now, the problem becomes its ability TO help us. Constellations tells us that even after the Heart of the Garden died and the Traveler began healing (latest entry takes place literal minutes before the Red War), it was beaten. Remember the coma patient analogy? Add on a MAJOR case of "oh god their bones are broken and they can barely breathe" and you have the Traveler, even now when it's awake. Perhaps it's not doing much because it CAN'T. I'm still banking on that orb dying when the Pyramids make their move. [u][b]THE WINNOWER[/b][/u] If the Gardener is wrong, the the Winnower is, get ready, ABSOLUTELY CORRECT ABOUT THE UNIVERSE. That's right, there's no doubting that it's literally the right answer if you want to discuss how cruel reality is. So, that's the answer the title is referring to, right? No. While there's no doubting the Darkness's superior ideology and even power, there's a BIG catch to all of it. Typically, that's annihilation. All or most of humanity would've been wiped from the board if the Traveler didn't intervene. That's the basis for the argument I'm making, one side didn't try to kill us. Though I guess there IS more to it. The Darkness recruits civilizations (usually indirectly) to kill others. To reduce things or people into nothingness, to prove the worthy and unworthy. Not to mention that the Darkness now has its personal army (Pyramids), which makes many of its other armies (i.e. the Hive) completely meaningless, which they would've been anyways thanks to the Worm pact. Another fun thing about the Darkness is that its ability drives people insane. The mortal things in this dimension literally cannot fathom the sheer gravitas of the Deep (see Calus in his first encounter with IT). While the Traveler brings new life and technology, the Darkness has literally brought nothing but destruction, dread, and insanity. The crew of First Light had a variety of people on it, some of which were willing to get as close to The Anomaly as possible. It thanked them by giving them insomnia, changing their DNA, and eventually leading them all to die when the Collapse started. All people who stayed on Titan during the mass exodus would've been murdered by the Deep's gravity-manipulation. It's also fun when the Black Armory founders could hear the screams of humanity from within a secure bunker UNDERGROUND. Oh, and the Exodus Green, despite declaring neutrality, was still hit by a lone ship's gravity waves. Yeah, that screams "friendly". The Winnower's arguments made during Beyond and Unveiling are to convince us that they are correct. I can say with good confidence that it is. However, that doesn't change the fact that all life in this system has been marked for negation and we need to fight back. It's a matter of survival, which is, amazingly enough, the Winnower's argument. Any animal fights when it's cornered, and that logic is why many species still live. It's a matter of MAYBE surviving (C/G) vs definitely dying, whether now or later (W). That has to be us, too. I don't mind people using the powers of Light and Darkness, but JOINING the Darkness isn't a smart move, no matter how correct the Deep is. It's Salvation through destruction. From our perspective, this shouldn't be an ideological battle, just a matter of who gets to live till the End... The Pyramids or humanity? TL:DR - Powers of Light and Dark = good | Team Light = could be better but OK | Team Dark = smartn't | Team Humanity = good>
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  • The Gardener knows about how everything fights and dies, it is not trying to disprove or change that, it wants there to be something that does not adhere to that rule, something that is separate so that it is not corrupted or interferes too much in the game. The nonsense people like Ulan-Tan, Mara Sov and the Symmetry spout about the Light and Darkness is nothing but bullshit spewed from the mouths of arrogant idiots, the universe does not need the Light or Darkness for light to grow and die without them lift will develop and some catastrophe will wipe it out, the Traveler has shown no desire to make everything unending, just look at all the species that it has visited none of them were made Risen besides us and that was out of desperation. Once we start using the powers of the Darkness it gains a gateway to corrupt the using, like cocaine, you start with just a little saying that you can resist it then before you realize what is happening you are giving head in an ally as a crack -blam!-. There might be some things that seem irrelevant but, meh.

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  • Edited by Necrogen: 5/23/2020 10:30:08 AM
    Frankly, I believe that we're talking about a being we just don't understand. Let me try and weigh in here to help.. A long time ago, I was in Burma, my friends and I were working for the local government. They were trying to buy the loyalty of tribal leaders by bribing them with precious stones. But their caravans were being raided in a forest north of Rangoon by a bandit. So we went looking for the stones. But in six months, we never found anyone who traded with her. One day I saw a child playing with a ruby the size of a tangerine. The bandit had been throwing them away. A question you might've asked is "Then why steal them?" Well, perhaps because she thought it was good sport. Because some people aren’t looking for anything logical, like money. They can’t be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some people just want to watch the world burn. So after all the searching we did, The bandit, in the forest in Burma, did we catch her? Yes, we did..[i][b]how[/b][/i] though? We burned the forest down.

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    • But since this is a video game, all you need to know is: Kill the Doritos that want to kill everything

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      • Interesting discussion for a different time perhaps? Right now I'm more concerned that there is a [i]game[/i] to play. I do not see a future for destiny currently. I'm talking beyond today.

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        • Can you prove the Traveler tries to leave? There's a few notes I know that look that way, but also some that straight up argue against it

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          • Absolutely fantastic post, excellent work! I’d like to argue my perspective and say the Gardener and Winnower are both bad/wrong. The Gardner is on the side of life (without death) and the Winnower is on the side of death (without life). We can say the Darkness is “right” or “smart” because of the beautiful logic of survival of the fittest, but the Winnower’s end game is the absolute death of all things. We can say the Traveler is “good” because it protects life, but as you explained the Traveler’s end game is a horrible thing, arguably just as bad or even worse than everything being dead. Together they are a perfect balance. Alone each one is terrible. And really neither is good or bad. One embodies death and the other embodies life. Naturally we would prefer to not die, so we side with the Traveler and fight the Darkness. Long story short: Ulan-Tan’s Symmetry is right and the Vex are the best. Beep boop

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          • Edited by LeadEatter153: 5/23/2020 8:52:54 PM
            So, to summarize this thread among others: [spoiler]The Gardener is salty about always losing the game of life and decides to cheat this time. It decides to insert itself into the game itself and become the Traveler. The Winnower gets angry and, inserting itself into the game as The Deep or Darkness, decides to intervene as well by sabotaging the Gardener early, according to one of your previous theories, by jump starting life on Earth (ironically). They then play a game of Ultimate Space Tag in which the Darkness chases the Traveler throughout the universe until they eventually reach Earth. Whether this was carefully planned out by the Darkness or sheer luck is up for debate. The Traveler decides to fight back for the first time after the Darkness finds it on Earth, pushing the Darkness back but being mortally wounded in the process. The effort seemed to have at least exhausted the Darkness and thus it retreats to outside our galaxy. It's unknown whether the Traveler is aware of our connections to the Winnower if the theory still holds up. Regardless, the Traveler decides to empower humanity by the creation of Ghosts and Guardians before going into a coma. Cue the events up until the Red War and now the Darkness is back in action and the Traveler is still seemingly crippled. [/spoiler] If humanity has direct connection to both parties, then both Light and Dark powers will be needed to survive the Darkness. Light alone is not powerful enough, and Dark powers are too unstable and dangerous to solely rely on. It's up to us to find a mix between the two that best benefits humanity for the upcoming war. The rest is just my speculation on future events: [spoiler]What is likely to happen is that the Traveler will die, but we will use its remaining power to fight back the Darkness and survive (not necessarily win, but survive). Whether the Darkness is destroyed or not probably won't matter, but perhaps it will be satisfied knowing we could ultimately fight it and live. It may very likely use the Vex in some capacity to fight us because the Vex were the result of the original winning pattern, and they've been slowly understanding paracausality as the story goes on. it would make sense if they were the ultimate enemy for us to fight, as I do not see the Hive or Taken outlasting them.[/spoiler]

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          • So basically, the Gardener is good, but makes some mistakes, while the Winnower is correct but is evil. And even though the Darkness wants to destroy us, we are actually playing its game by its own rules... so... [i]game on, Winnower[/i]

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          • This is what I’ve been saying for the past year. The only thing you’re missing is Calus. His ideology is that we need to accept both and accept the inevitably of death but live joyously until then. The awoken are the best example of preferred outcome. We find balance and go to our own pocket universe (heaven) and become legend and fulfill our Destiny while this universe is destroyed

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          • [i][b]If it bleeds - We can kill it! [/b][/i]

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          • The Traveler saw a vision. In our system there was a way to fight the Darkness without fear of destruction. It wasn't about to leave that.

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          • So what I got from this is that by punching the bad guys I done gud?? *wanders off, munching crayon and muttering to self* [spoiler]Sorry, all out of salt.[/spoiler]

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          • I mean while the darkness is under the philosophy of survival of the fittest, I would think the lights ultimate goal would be Unity. The culmination of many races working together for peace. The Darkness made sure the Hive are eternally bound to fight and eventually die, thus no unity can be achieved. We have a chance with the fallen though. while in the beginning we've been at war with them, for god knows how long, we do now have a sort of ally with Mthrax. Who knows how far that can go.

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          • Good topic. Well written. The Winnower seems to want an extreme devotion to its philosophy, which is an issue because the universe is all about complexity. Life may be a game changer but that’s the point.

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          • Blind devotion is just idiotic, that's just the short and straight to the point of it Life has no purpose, we're all gonna die and every second we stay alive we kill billions of other lifeforms just by breathing. Nothing has a point, nobody has a purpose, we're all gonna die But to accept that shit? You might as well of taken yourself out years ago. To deny it? You're a fool plain and simple We're not creatures crafted by these Godly powers, built to fight on their behalf. We're simple humans who just want to continue living, we don't owe anything to the traveler or the light other then gratitude for helping us Basically like you said archival, it's not about choosing between the Gardner or the winnower. we're team human, and that's what we should focus on

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            • Well said AM

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