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originally posted in: The Raid Revive System
9/17/2019 12:40:42 AM
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AWhen D2 launched you had a short window to pick someone up or you wiped. This virtually eliminated "Hero moments" because you quickly failed if you didn't pick someone up, so once you were out of Tokens and had Guardians down your fate was sealed. One of the main goals of that system was to encourage teams to revive their teammates because it feels bad to sit around in the dead box not contributing. We got a lot of feedback about this and made a change to the 2:30 pool of time. As long as you are diligent about reviving your allies you should have a decent amount of time in the end for the remnants of your fireteam to beat the encounter in spectacular fashion. That's some of the thinking behind the current system anyway. I'll pass along your feedback to the team about possibly adjusting this further in the future.
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  • Why you hate on us who die intentionally to go to the bathroom? I wanna stay dead dammit

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  • Edited by MstrofPuppts: 9/17/2019 8:45:37 PM
    Cozmo, although the feeling of being stuck in a death screen is legitimate, it still exists even with the timer. The issue with the timer is it forces teams to revive quicker thus missing a crucial step in a mechanic or dealing dps. I do realize there is a 2:30 timer, but risking having another teammate go down to revive may be too risky at certain times of the raid. Raid teams rather wipe when members go down instead of trying to run an encounter, except when it's almost finished and the team could clear in the 2:30. That is about the only time a hero moment could exist in current Raids. Most time then not is the team will not generate enough dps and the timer will wipe them. The hero moments will become non existent as teams will with try and revive quickly or just wipe and start over once Shadowkeep drops. In closing, the raid needs to have a normal and hard mode, as in D1. Where we can learn the raid with no timer and a harder mode with a timer and changed mechanic or twist.

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  • My 2 cents, as someone who raided a fair bit in d1, but almost never in d2... we are missing the Normal mode/Hard mode variance that made it easier to teach the raid in normal, as it is less punishing, and then perma-dead the hard modes. Yes, it could suck if you were dead without a revive but it did not kill the run most of the time, the team could regroup and rally.

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  • Remove revive tokens from raids entirely and put them in Gambit as invader tokens.

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  • Cozmo. The whole revive token system is dumb. Don't extend the timer, shitcan it altogether. Those hero moments made for some awesome memories from D1. Overall, there has been too much obsession with making us HAVE to have 6 people up at all times...which is overall just bad design.

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  • I agree, my most epic moment was during the 2 sister phase of the taken king raid where I literally popped my sunsinger ult to try and nuke the boss between my grenades heavy and touch of malice and getting the kill in the final seconds due to the rest of my team dieing reasons. Or during the same phase but different run when we had a titan run up to the witch debuff her with the melee grenades heavy and everything he had

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    we should be able to keep playing if we run out of revives, just means you have to clutch. There is no more clutching the raid. Overall its just been a worse experience than D1, which is inline with the rest of the game.

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  • Edited by Xero: 9/17/2019 1:41:57 PM
    [b][i]You could turn this around into a much bigger incentive for both the hardcore raiders and the casual ones who just want to do it for the experience. All without making separate difficulties.[/b][/i] Here's an idea: Give another token for each checkpoint completed to add on existing tokens currently had. This gives incentive for teaching and not having many frustrations. Have the token number remembered from that checkpoint to restrict a reset, in case of a wipe. The only way to reset tokens is to choose collectively to start over from the beginning. Here's the twist...at the end, have the Fireteam deposit the remaining tokens in one of three final chests beyond the boss chest. One for armor, one for weapons, one for miscellaneous stuff (think ghost shells, shaders, sparrows, heck...raid tokens, etc.) The more unused tokens (up to a cap of whatever is decided) the better the loot given/better chances of getting whatever is being chased after. Think of it like a second/third/fourth, etc chance. This gives the players a [b][i]huge[/i][/b] sense of control on what they can gun for gear wise from the raids, and in theory, should encourage more players to at least try your endgame content. I'm sure the rates and types can be sorted out from the devs...call them tokens of light or something.

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  • I like the idea of getting an extra token after a checkpoint, but the chest idea, while definitely enticing, makes me a little nervous. The pessimist in me envisions raid LFG post requirements like "don't die or we'll kick you". Raiders can get pretty temperamental when loot is involved, and tying extra rewards to something as crucial as revive tokens could go to a bad place.

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  • Edited by Xero: 9/18/2019 7:13:31 PM
    [quote]The pessimist in me envisions raid LFG post requirements like "don't die or we'll kick you". Raiders can get pretty temperamental when loot is involved, and tying extra rewards to something as crucial as revive tokens could go to a bad place.[/quote] I scrutinized that thought for a while, but ultimately we, nor Bungie, cannot control the player mindset. People will always think and do as they please. Objectively this is more about three things: 1) Trying to open up endgame content to more players while... 2) Giving [i]something[/i] for the Tempered Raiders so they don't complain as much and... 3) Giving a means to have the completionist [i]feel[/i] they can get everything if they really wanted to. The chest idea should [i][b]NOT[/b][/i] be something pinnacle, it should just be another shot for going after something of choice. It could be a raid gun, raid armor, or something cosmetic. If it were up to me, even one token would be better than none, since it's just rolling the RNG dice again. (Think of how the Menagerie Chalice worked.) Heck even having at least 3 (one for each suggested chest) would be a decent compromise, if Bungie only wanted this to happen once per reset per character. Who would say no for the chance to get more loot? Let alone narrowing down what you want to go for. If the chests did give something pinnacle or over powering, it would go against Bungie's vision of bringing players together to play content, since it would lead to what you're stating without a doubt. More divided, and angry mindsets. Everyone will have different reasons to play a raid. Since the game seems in a constant state of throwing things to the wall and seeing what sticks, Bungie may as well test this. Maybe more players will be willing to jump in the raid pool, if the water seems inviting.

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  • maybe make the tokens fireteam wide so when the same 2 people die twice its not a wipe. makes teaching frustrating andis a large reason theres less sherpas and higher requirements than d1

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  • It sucks cozmo let’s be honest. Nothing beats being the last guardian alive and getting the job done.

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  • Edited by Milk: 9/17/2019 11:14:21 AM
    [quote]It sucks cozmo let’s be honest. Nothing beats being the last guardian alive and getting the job done.[/quote] Except getting the job done without anyone dying...

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  • Disagree. I lived for those moments when I saved my team.

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  • 1
    not that is just normal, the clutch is the more fun scenario.

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  • It should never of been changed, hero moments are great and had so many in d1. Galhran is the only example the current system works in, Try making up for loss of dps in scourge Or last wish. Bring back hard mode and normal. Normal COULD still retain tokens But hard is the OG way, altered mechanics, 1 life no messing about. Improved loot.

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  • I’ll be honest, I didn’t realise there was a token change to increase the timer. In D2 I only did Laviathan, and only once early on. Tokens sucked enough that I never bothered trying to raid again. To learn content the first time you do it you will likely die. Or hell, even random things can happen by “the architects”. It felt like you became a hinderance to your team. Not helpful at all. Demands perfection or you end up wiping your team. Basically sucked the fun of trying to learn things from me. I’m more then capable of learning encounters, but being the cause of a wipe because I died and couldn’t be revived in time sucks. No wonder experienced teams don’t want new players. It punishes learning and becomes a non-issue for the experienced. Just remove it. And, what actually causes everyone to die? When I die does my ghost get sad and eventually blow everyone up or what? Can we weaponise them?

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  • yeah is a good system, don't listen cry baby's

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  • side note: Any word on that exotic kinetic sword paired with an energy bow that i keep pitching to you and deej? I know a lot of community members that I've mentioned the idea to seem to love the idea of a Kinect sword and a sword bow combo. Just a reminder: Exotic kinetic sword that takes special ammo; sword kills would buff bow precision damage making it equal to a sniper, and you can stack up to 5 power arrows. Precision bow kills would generate sword ammo.

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  • I dont know about other people but i never sat around dead in d1 and id always rez people as soon as i could (assuming theyre in a safe enough spot to do so). I feel like the while the token system tried to encourage team work all it has done has made raids harder for the below average players. Its kind of become this gatekeeper to raiding for some people, maybe going back to d1 style system for an easy mode and then token system for hard mode would make raids more appealing to the large portion of people who havent raided as much in d2?

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  • This system works against you in COS boss phase 1 and really in any encounter that requires you to split into teams of 2. Especially if your teaching/carrying people through a raid and makes it very difficult if not impossible (with some people). This is part of the reason why a lot of D2 player refuse to teach new people. Vog, Crota, Eow, and Sotp are probably the most fun raids and its because they are the easiest to teach, encounters typically only require 2 or 3 people who know the mechanics leaving everyone else to add clear, and if the carried person/s die the remaining can typically carry on and finish the encounter.

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  • Edited by whiskeychaser: 9/17/2019 3:13:10 AM
    I learned some great strategies watching through other players while dead during d1 raids. It was also fun commenting on others in the group. Go back to easy mode/hard mode please. It causes a lot less stress in the community if beginners and experts are separated by mode and not KWTD b.s.

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  • You guys should have never changed it from D1

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  • Bungie loves changing things that were not broke. 🥴

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  • I don't think that decision should be Bungie's to force. Yea it might suck being dead, but wiping bc of tokens and timers suck too. And, again, players who don't know the encounter can learn a ton being dead and following another guardian's pov. Make it a special challenge to beat with no more that ## revives or something, but don't force everyone to those same restrictions. Those "git gud" players are gonna "KWTD or get kicked" either way, so res tokens are clearly not the key to creating an inclusive environment. Just let the fireteam playing decide the best way to learn and beat the encounter.

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