I agree. I raided a lot in D1 because you could have fun, I raided with a team or randoms it didn't make that much of a difference. No matter what anyone says all raids are hard until your power level is higher and patterns and strategies are created, after that it becomes run of the mill stuff, but run of the mill fun or run of the mill chore. VOG, CROTA, KF, are all fun raids to me after that it was last wish, but even that has become a chore after very few clearances. D1 raids were much more survival and fight orientated, in other words,use the tools you have earned to get through situations, which in its self contributed to the games grind for better gear and power, the mechanics were understandable and to a point understandable in the context of what you were trying to do. We play a game because we like shooting guns at aliens and blowing stuff up, not to shoot at targets or hands, buff this, swap that with him, then with him then he can shoot but you cant. Sorry that's just not fun, I want to go into a raid, shoot stuff, try to stay alive while doing some mechanic that makes sense and then shoot at a boss that is not nailed to the floor and just stays put why you slaughter it. Sorry for the rant, I just think D1 raids were more immersive,rewarding and fun than any D2 raids. Just my opinion.

I've been getting that itch to raid. But I have the same problem every time. It's getting quiet now, so it's harder and harder to pull a group of people I know together. The raids are so punishing with the mechanics that I just can't be bothered trying to run them with people I'm unfamiliar with, unless I've got my teaching pants on. And even if I'm going to do the raids, the loot is so bad now that I would literally be doing it to get legendary shards... Going back and doing old raids in D1 was fun, and they were less of a PITA to teach. I miss raiding...

I think the largest difference is the decision to move away from "hero moments" to "team performance." For example, VOG Templar, the main person responsible for anything was the relic holder. That's it. Everyone else just shot adds, positioned themselves, and did DPS. It was challenging because of positioning and adds. They could quickly overwhelm you. Atheon, one one team went on the inside, one on the out, but technically, you just needed 1 person on the plates outside to open. The rest could position themselves to kill adds. Same thing with inside. Killing oracles was made easier by two people plus the relic holder, but really you just needed one and relic, the other was insurance. Crota, it was just the sword bearer. That's it. No pressure on anyone else. No demanding high performance from your weakest link. King's Fall is when things got tricky, and is also why it's a very divisive raid. A lot of D2 raids follow King's Fall. Everyone has to perform or you fail. Aksis was similar, but there was a small amount of room for error. In my opinion, it was a good balance between hero and team performance, because only half of your team was required to perform at a time (the three with buffs). In D2, for me, the best raid is Scourge of the Past. It doesn't demand high performance from every member of the team. There is room to recover and adapt, and it's just a fun raid overall because of it. Last wish sucks because of how many mechanics there are and how long it is. You just get worn out, even when you know what you're doing. CoS is actually pretty awesome, but only because the length is perfect. Any longer and it'd be disastrous because of how mechanic heavy it is. Leviathan is a mixed bag. I enjoy it, but it relies too much on team performance over hero moments. One person messes up and it pretty much screws everything up for every encounter. I love Eater of Worlds. That is another great balance of not putting pressure on everyone to perform, only a select few. Spire of Stars is the worst. That raid is a monstrosity, even more so than Last Wish. Hard to explain, annoying to execute, and way too many moving parts with the most clunky mechanic ever of throwing stuff. Wrote an essay there. Just felt inspired, I guess.

I'm really hoping the dungeon in shadowkeep will be Crotas end

Id say Last Wish is destiny 2s best raid by far, has all the elements of a D1 raid and has great rewards and some pretty amazing lore to go along with it and is very fun to run with a decent group, i hope to see more raids like that in y3 d2.

I still go back and play d1 raids weekly on Xbox if anyone is interested

The problem with the raids now is that they are super [b]By the Book[/b] and must be complete with absolute precision, and timing. They completely removed [u]improvising. [/u] That one thing, is what made raids so much fun in D1. “Oh no! Someone died at Totems during Kings Fall! Crap! Send someone over.” “Ah! I died with the Shield I can’t clense! Hold on I’ll grab it. Send someone through to kill Oracles!” “Crap Aksis is enraged! Come on guys we gotta kill him!” Almost every raid I did, whether it were a bunch of randoms or one of my teams, we improvised something. Raids no longer feel like they did to me.

Agreed. Raids are now less about shooting and killin enemies but more about some team coordination to be able to do some weird tasks... The game came to that point that to play endgame you have to use third party app for LFG, communication, and watch youtube on regular basis. Without these tools the game is just unplayable. Wtf?

You mean when raid bosses had real mechanics? Not just stand still for you to unload spike nades on? Me too..

There needs to be an easy mode and a hard mode, like VoG and Crota had. Get rid of the damn revive tokens and go back to that format. For those that don't remember, easy mode allowed for revives after a 30 second penalty, while hard mode had death being permanent until the encounter was completed.

I loved vog but i thought kingsfall was a masterpiece. Wrath Against The Machine will always be my favorite though.

I haven't had the chance to raid much in D2, but I will say this: VoG SUCKED! Oh my God I have no idea how any can love that raid. The boss encounters are quite boring, the layout (being Vex) is horrid, the Gorgrons can go die in a hole. It just isn't a fun raid, especially when compared to Court or Wrath