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Edited by Havoc:
8/18/2019 1:35:47 AM
115
main reason why Kings Fall (Oryx fight) should be the standard for raid boss encounters
[b]edit:[/b] please please please read the post and edits, it isn't that much! lol
[b]weapons/supers are not used for direct dps towards hp[/b]
this lets guns and guardians be op/powerful without diminishing the challenge of a raid boss. weapons/supers are instead tools to complete the mechanic required to deal damage.
let us feel like the monster god-slayers we are meant to be while allowing the monster gods to remain imposing.
[b]edit:[/b] i'm not trying to promote the entire KF raid to be foundation for future raids, only that instead of nerfing weapons and supers bc of player dps, add some mechanics that let us use guns and supers LIKE the Oryx encounter (kill knights to spawn ogres, ogres for blights, supers for orbs, ads and safety etc)
[b]edit:[/b] Aksis is a great option (if not better), I opted to use Oryx as it doesn't involve our weapons or supers dealing damage to him directly. I think the sweet middle of the two would be great for all types of raiders
[b]edit:[/b] final raid boss, not all boss encounters, sorry!
[b]edit:[/b] for those who may not understand, Oryx does have a dps check that's NOT related to his health points (chest stagger). your light level means something here
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#destiny2
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1 Reply
Cat:3 - old
While I have not done any of D2’s raids, I did all of D1 at least once and to this day none of the raids gave me the rush and exhilaration that killing Oryx on hard mode did. It felt like real desperation, like every single bullet counted. Making sure every shaking hop on platform landed soundly. Watching Oryx drift towards Saturn after defeating him felt so good. Other raids just felt like “business as usual”. Just another day at the office. -
Edited by TotalDramaGamer: 8/19/2019 7:57:17 AMI have no idea why but it seemed like half of the groups for KF just succed the big D when it game to those death totems. Yeah, I don't know why, but some people just could not stop dying on that part... Honestly the most frustrating part of the raid. Why? Because it's so easy YET it's so often to find groups STUCK on it. It made no sense whatsoever. -- Also, the fundamental flaw in D2 raids is STILL the fact everyone has to live throughout the encounter. Change my mind, please, because as far as I can tell D1 raids will always be superior due to the fact you didn't have a cudgel over your head due to one teammates accidental incompetence. There are no more hero moments in D2, for the most part. It just doesn't happen. No more 3 man finishes. No more last man standing clutch. Sure, it makes everyone work for it the whole time. But I honestly think a lot of players would gladly 'bear the burden of responsibility' if it meant they could push through the end of an encounter so they could save time in the end. Did we pass or did we fail? That's what matters. No one really cares at the end of the day 'who survived the whole time' as long as they beat the encounter. Just makes it harsher against new players... honestly...
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3 RepliesVoG is the sweet spot for mechanics and boss DPS phases Kingsfall was a bit too mechanic heavy and had too many moving pieces. Trying to explain it to a new person wasnt the easiest. WoM was also just right when it came to mechanics and Boss phases, but slamming the orb onto the final boss was hit or miss sometimes. Crota was an enhanced strike. Although, it was nice to be a able to do a raid quickly and the mechanics werent complicated at all. I also think that the gear you got from the D1 raids were far superior than the gear we get today for the D2 raids. I cant think of any piece of gear that i should be grinding for in D2 raids as there are plenty of counterparts outside of the raid that take less effort to get. I mean just think back to the VoG weapons, Fatebringer, Vision of Confluence, Found verdict, Vex Mythoclast, Praedyth's revenge, corrective measure etc. were all fantastic weapons well worth the grind to get them.
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my problem with oryx is because the fight is based completely on mechanics, it feels like there no room for improvement. Most raids, you find ways to speed up the encounter by improving your guardian's power (dps) Oryx will always take 4 phases no matter what you do. It starts to feel a little bit like a drag on your 5th plus run.
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Edited by Dredgen iko: 8/20/2019 2:36:50 AMHonestly the best raid bosses are the EoW SOTP CoS or VoG The rest are just terrible
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3 RepliesVOG or WOTM should be the standard. Not Kings Fall Just some random cones opinion
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14 RepliesD1 Raids/Strikes are far more superior in everyway compared to D2! Change my mind!
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while I loved kings fall, it really opened my eyes to how many people out there in this big world of ours don’t know their left and right. Makes me sad.
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1 ReplyIt may be because I haven’t played Kings Fall in years but the Oryx encounter never really felt to me like it was us versus him. Instead it felt like us versus his army and Oryx kinda dies in the background eventually.
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1 ReplyWhile I agree with many of your points, I disagree with the core idea. No, it shouldnt be the "standard" of Boss fights, BUT it should definitely be a design choice that is used more often. Even though Kings Fall is my favourite raid, there are many people who heavilly disliked it for being mechanic heavy. For me thats exactly what I want but as you can see from the comments its not what others want. There is also the problem with skill vs speed. Once you "master" the Oryx fight, you cannot make it go faster. You are always stuck doing the same ammount of orbs to do the same ammount of damage in the same ammount of time (more or less). Sure it will become easier and some areas might become slightly faster, but as a fight overall it doesnt, and for many people that makes it feel like your Mastery doesnt mean anything, which I understand too. I feel like we should have a better mix, Last Wish did it right. If it wasnt for mega-powercreep and 1 phasing her to ignore the entire fight, the "main" way youre "supposed" to damage her actually does make a lot of sense and is quite fun to do.
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11 RepliesI hated Kingsfall if I'm honest, just seemed overly mechanical with out a point to it, the Oryx fight was just a mess to me. Vault of Glass is still the best raid they ever did, balance was just about perfect, in my opinion, I've never understood the love for Kingsfall, I just put it down to the fact that Vanilla had been getting stale and it hit at just the right time to get people interested and I felt that made it popular, not that it was that good a raid but it was just way better than what we had been used to for some time. In fact I'd list it as the worst raid in Vanilla, subjective opinion of course.
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4 RepliesSorry, no. You have no way to argue against the set time the fight takes. That is the worst part about the fight. You HAVE to beat it in 4 waves. No more, no less. Shiro Chi is also like this, and it is another fight I absolutely despise. They take up so much time. And what is worse is, if you fail, you have to start back over from the beginning. there is not a way to, say, increase your DPS to make the actual fight shorter or less risk aversive. Your group can be doing great until the final part, which again is always 4, or in Shiro's case, 6, and then mess up and have to start from 1 again. This is WAY worse than just normal dps where you try to get in various amounts of damage to kill the boss. My group just disbanded at Shiro for this exact reason. It is also the fight I see the most disbanding from. It is real freaking annoying to have to do something perfect repetitively with strangers a set amount of times. This is also why the forge puzzle sucked. In addition to it just being mind boggingly confusing, every time groups failed, they had to start from the 1st wave again. No reason other than to waste time. This design is actually one of the worst in Destiny.
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3 RepliesI agree that Oryx is the best boss fight they've done for make reasons. 1) everybody had an important role, but that role could be defined going in and players put in positions to succeed. In fights like Atheon, Aksis, Calus, etc, where it's completely random who gets picked/placed/etc, it puts a much greater strain on teams and player relationships when success is often RNG on who gets picked when. It's a great theory to want everyone to experience all parts, but ultimately it does more harm than good imo as some players need more structure and defined roles to be their best, while others are more capable of switching on the fly. I thought Eater of Worlds really was so good because it also allowed teams to define roles. 2) while there were mechanics, they weren't over the top and the main focus was still the fighting and killing the enemies (ogres, knights, fighting in the shade). It wasn't like Spire and HM Calus where you constantly had 3 second windows (sometimes less) for players to hit their marks and one mistake was a wipe. You could recover in the Oryx fight. If someone missed their Knight, other players on the team could pick them up, same for burning down ogres. 3) you had to do 3 rounds, but if you missed one, you could do another. Atheon wasn't a bad fight, but I always thought it would've been much better if they'd toned down the supplicants and randomness a bit and upped Atheon's health to make players do multiple rounds like Oryx. Instead the fight became all about one-phasing (at least in the challenge mode) and if you didn't one phase it was most likely a wipe.
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2 RepliesKings fall (and to a lesser extent) wraith of the machine felt like finishing the story or arc of the dlc. I felt I had a reason to be there. For me that's why the raids havent felt very good in d2. (I moved to pc and havent done them on this account). I had so many completions of all the d1 raids (solo'd crota as well) but I just cant be bothered with these ones.
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Every ecounter in kings fall has the best mechanics and fight encounters to date
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If the cheese didn't exist and she had a little more health I feel Riven is another good fight because of the way her mechanics flow along with the cooperation required with your team it is the whole package for raiding, but Oryx fits the bill as well plus Aksis (for raid lairs I feel Val cau'our should be the baseline).
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1 ReplyWhile kings fall is my favorite raid, I don't think every fight should be like Oryx. How about instead of the boss just sitting there with his crit hanging out and not doing a single thing during damage phase, he actually becomes a bigger threat? When SoS first came out the biggest thing to avoid during damage phase were the bosses' missiles. 90% of our wipes was due to that shit. We actually had to hide, watch for missiles, and take cover in the most crucial part of the boss fight. It's almost as if the boss didn't want us to kill him? Compare that to CoS where the boss just sends a handful of thrawl at you that can be taken out in less than a second with a grenade. And no, him putting his hands up is no where near a threat or a challenge.
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1 ReplyAlso crota, where the relic (sword) damages the boss, and weapons merely down the shield.
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3 Replies[quote][b]edit:[/b] please please please read the post and edits, it isn't that much! lol [b]weapons/supers are not used for direct dps towards hp[/b] this lets guns and guardians be op/powerful without diminishing the challenge of a raid boss. weapons/supers are instead tools to complete the mechanic required to deal damage. let us feel like the monster god-slayers we are meant to be while allowing the monster gods to remain imposing. [b]edit:[/b] i'm not trying to promote the entire KF raid to be foundation for future raids, only that instead of nerfing weapons and supers bc of player dps, add some mechanics that let us use guns and supers LIKE the Oryx encounter (kill knights to spawn ogres, ogres for blights, supers for orbs, ads and safety etc) [b]edit:[/b] Aksis is a great option (if not better), I opted to use Oryx as it doesn't involve our weapons or supers dealing damage to him directly. I think the sweet middle of the two would be great for all types of raiders [b]edit:[/b] final raid boss, not all boss encounters, sorry! [b]edit:[/b] for those who may not understand, Oryx does have a dps check that's NOT related to his health points (chest stagger). your light level means something here[/quote] That was a ham handed raid all that hopping around with orbs etc, dumb ass mechanics
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2 RepliesNo. Its shouldn't. The boss fight always took the same amount of time which is stupid. You can't one phase him which is unfortunate
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The REAL reason Oryx should be the standard: Oryx was B I G. Not just Gate Lord big, not CHONKY, like Calus, but a real big mother-blam!-er. We need more real goliaths to slay. I get they're a challenge to animate and rig, but goddamn, the effort is worth it.
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If you like that style of encounter than I recommend shuro chi.
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3 RepliesReally? Because as I seem to remember it the community had a -blam!- fit about how the Oryx boss fight, while thematically cool, was an absolute chore because no matter how good or bad your team was at the fight, it took at least 4 cycles to kill Oryx. And those 4 cycles were LONG. It was an arduous fight where any singular death in hard mode at any point would basically mean the end of the run entirely and force a restart of that boss fight. No matter how good you were, no matter how solid your damage could have been, it didn't matter because the mechanics were forcing you to go through 4 phases minimum. People hated that. I seem to remember Wrath of the Machine being much more well received in this instance when it comes to Aksis Phase 2. Aksis phase 2 had lots of really solid fight mechanics that weren't hindered by the damage of your guardians at all. In fact, they were often enhanced, because since the fight wasn't limited to mechanic heavy damage and was more influenced by guardian damage, if your team was good enough you could theoretically kill the boss in a single cycle. The mechanics weren't dictating to you how fast or slow you could kill the boss, YOU were. Which is why I think Aksis Phase 2 was more deserving of that defacto Raid design title because the mechanics were there, they had impact, you needed to do them to execute the fight correctly, but they weren't so limiting that mechanics were the only thing that made you do damage. Guardians could show off their skill and power in the boss fight through damage, but also show their mechanical mastery of the fight. Oryx didn't really have that.
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2 RepliesI really loved the Crota encounter. Its basically the same thing. You can only damage him with a relic. Raids Need more heromoments
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King's Fall was my least favorite raid in D1. It was really unforgiving and was too mechanics heavy for my liking. I can understand how some may have liked that. It just wasn't for me. My favorite clutch moment in a raid was running VoG hard mode. Fireteam got overrun by ads during the Templar fight. I was the last man standing. Templar had almost no health left. I was running bubble Titan with Gjallarhorn. I had already dropped my bubble and had to grab the Aegis and get super charged again. Dropped his shield and Ghorned him to death. Good times.
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Actually the fact that oryx doesn't use our weapons or abilities really at all to actually beat him is exactly what I hated about that fight. It made our participation feel rather lacking. Literally all we did was kill some ogres hit oryx a little to stun him and eventually blow up bombs that did basically all of the work. It didn't make me feel like a god killer in the least. More like a cog in a strange suicide machine. One of if not the least favorite boss fight in all of destiny so far, for me.
