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Edited by AbsolutZeroGI: 8/15/2019 5:31:14 PM
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Dispelling the myth that Well needs nerfed

A LOT of people don't understand how math works. 1. A well adds 35% damage per player and it does not stack. If a fireteam of 6 people deal a total of 1000 damage, the well increases that to 1350 damage. If each guardian is doing 1000 damage, each guardian does 1350 damage x 6 = 8100 damage, 35% higher than the 6000 they would've done without a well. You're not doing 210% more damage and percentages don't "add up" like that you uneducated morons. 2. "It makes the game worse because all you do is sit in a well and fire" Inaccurate. Bungie keeps creating encounters where the most logical thing to do is sit in a well and spam fire. Nerfing it doesn't make encounters anymore difficult, simply longer because guardians are dealing less damage. In fact, with a worse well, you're just spamming the fire button for a longer period of time, making the encounter more tedious. In D1, raid bosses and mechanics forced movement frequently. Well doesn't work in King's Fall or Wrath of the Machine because you have to run around and do shit basically the whole time. It works in EOW because the boss' crit spot faces one direction, it doesn't move, and neither do you for the whole damage phase. *Edit* In the instances where well would've worked in D1, people DID use Titan bubbles which were functionally identical. It buffed weapons making for quicker encounters and made you invulnerable to damage. The only difference was the 19 pixel strafe to get into and out of the Bubble. Nobody called for nerfs to the Bubble because "every raid encounter needs a bubble!". Stop bringing it up, you will lose that comparison. 3. "It's broken or whatever the non warlock mains keep saying " There's a video of a hunter one shot meleeing a raid boss to death. There are videos of 6 hunters killing Calus and finishing EOW in under 15 seconds with celestial nighthawk and golden gun spam. Some dumb ass streamer wants to talk about a well of radiance that helps guardians finish an event approximately 35% faster and THAT'S the broken thing Bungie fixes? Sorry, but no. Hunters have been leaning on Celestial Nighthawk since D1 and do things with it that warlocks can only dream about. You can break various aspects of this game with all characters. 4. "it's still broken cuz you can one phase bosses" We were one phasing every raid encounter back in Y1 with regular rifts before well ever existed and nobody complained then. You can one phase any strike boss with a well coordinated fireteam without a warlock present at all. Blinding Wells aren't any harder without them and, frankly, the only reason they're useful in Leviathan is because of the reload mechanic with Lunas while shooting skulls during the Calus encounter. 5. "Something something warlocks are OP" You can still beat a prestige EOW final encounter in under 20 seconds with 6 hunters. Can't do that with 6 warlocks. Careful where you toss your OP badge, idiots. Celestial Nighthawk + one guy to tether with Orpheus Rig was the original one phase cheese and you can still mostly do it. 6. "Phoenix Protocol means infinite rifts!" No, you (the warlock) have to kill/assist mobs to generate the new super energy. If there are none (or very few), you get no super energy and it's a useless exotic. Never mind that most self respecting warlocks wear Lunafaction boots to raids and have since year 1, before well ever existed. The infinite well trick only works in the blind well and that's assuming you put it in the right place and get bullets in most of the bad guys that appear. The exotic doesn't just give you free super energy for existing. It's not Bernie Sanders armor. 7. "You're functionally invincible in a well" In PvE, maybe. It's a super after all. They're not called "mediocres". However, in PvP, you absolutely are not invincible. It being mostly useless in pvp because of the fast TTK is why lost of us use nova bombs or the other solar super. 7. "Datto is popular and everything he says is right." Datto gets paid money to play a game you all paid for and play without monetary gain. He is not you, he does not represent you, and his views only serve himself and his popularity. They should NEVER be a guide Bungie uses to dictate mechanics to the rest of the player base, none of whom play the game as often or [i][u]for the same reasons[/u][/i] as a damn streamer. This is his job. It is our hobby. He does not and will never want the same things we do. 8. "Nerf Lunafaction boots" If you nerf Lunas, then OEM, Celestial Nighthawk, and basically every other good exotic better -blam!-ing well be on that list too. Either you burn everybody or leave well enough alone. The effects people whine about are all a combination of an exotic piece of gear and a SUPER. the well isn't infinite without exotic armor and it doesn't reload your weapons without exotic boots. Take into consideration that most players don't get paid money to play the game like Datto or play the game for 4000 hours like many of you. A lot of people don't have those exotics and are staring down the barrel of a super being made pointless for a reason they never got to experience. 9. "Well Datto has a point" Nobody gave a shit about Lunas, wells, or rifts before Datto posted his bullshit rage bait nonsense video about it. Nobody cared if a warlock had a well and Lunas. These were not issues that needed to be fixed. It's just a bored streamer in mid August playing a game nobody is gonna care about for another 2 months with no content to make so he invented a problem and complained about it. Content creators in YouTube do that literally all the time. It's not a real problem, he just needs a paycheck and chose Wells to complain about this time. Nothing he said made any actual sense to a warlock main who actually plays this game. 10. "Well something something pinnacle events well of radiance" You're just salty that nobody cares about your rally barracades anymore. Keep in mind that this is a SUPER with an EXOTIC paired together and Titan and Hunter mains have no problems coming into this community to defend their crutches (One Eyed Mask, for instance). 11. "Bungie is gonna do it anyway" Yeah, screw that miserable company. Why would anybody buy Shadowkeep if they're gonna grind and grind for good stuff just to have it nerfed every time some whiny brat streamer makes a cry video about it. Whatever. -blam!- you, Bungie. 12. "It makes the game boring" No, the game is already boring. Well just made it faster and easier, which is what a Super is supposed to -blam!-ing do. Sure the argument is made that it forces players to play somewhat differently, the fact remains that exotic + super combinations are used as crutches by all subclasses in all aspects of the game. It's disingenuous to single out solar-locks with Lunas when Titans and Hunters also have broken ass mechanics with exotics and supers. Why not change how they play too? Or has this dwindling community somehow, some way not gotten tired of Jotunn noobs or sliding-shotgun titans with OEMs? *edit* Adding one more 13. "It adds variety to the game" This one is difficult to argue in a vacuum because a lot of us do use Well in the same circumstances (mostly raid encounters). However, there are many items, supers, and mechanics that dictate how people play. OEM + Dusk Rock Blues Titans are still an overwhelming favorite for PvP players. Machine Guns and 1k Voices are immensely popular by invaders in Gambit. Hell, guardians cheese Flashpoint by intentionally not doing the public event (and not letting anyone do it) so they can fast travel back and redo the event a second time. People will skip to the end of Last Wish to farm 1k voices and not even do the rest of the raid. And the complaint is that Well reduces the number of ways people play? Thus, the idea of Nerfing well for the sake of "variety" while ignoring all of the other game breaks, cheeses, and gear/supers that dictate how people play is basically just an absurd witch hunt dreamt up by a guy who just needed something to talk about in August when there's nothing to talk about in this game. "I like fixes as long as long as it doesn't change how I play" is a bad reason to change how thousands of people play a video game and "because a streamer said so" is not respecting the people who paid $100+ for this game and all its DLC. Streamers aren't representatives. We did not vote for them.
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  • Edited by TJ_Dot: 8/16/2019 5:21:55 AM
    I want to see how broken it really is in a team with no Lunafaction/Rallicade

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  • Ok can someone explain why people are complaining about well? I main warlock but primarily only use it during strikes when I have to use a solar subclass. I've read a few of the posts and they keep mentioning lunafactions with it and even compare it to whisper which doesnt make much sense. Lunafaction is an exotic that effects rifts and wells for not needing to reload outside of these it doesn't do anything else. Then compared to prenerfed whisper really makes no sense to me because as long as you had three shots and hit your crits it never ran out of ammo where as lunafaction only reloads from reserves. This means you are still limited by ammo. Sure this means you dont have to take time to reload but at the same time titans have a rally barricade that can give some cover and reload guns aswell without eating an exotic slot. Also see people talk about changing playstyles. This kinda feels odd to say when people are bringing up wanting to change one playstyle like this. Honestly feel like if this gets nerfed it wont be used anymore. We have a non nerfing example with the titan void wall super. With how it works it mostly becomes useless to use the actual wall that boosts allied damage when shooting through and blocks enemy attacks.

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    • Yes😏

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    • my issue with people arguing for the nerf due to lack of subclass diversity is that that argument is rubbish. For 5 years we have seen sandbox shifts that just lead to the next MUST HAVE/USE scenario. If well is seen to be useless or close to useless for future end game content such as raids, there will still very likely be the next best thing which will end up being the most used and go-to option, then the downward spiral likely continues to some reiteration of D2Y1. Cant wait. I may be proven wrong in that lately Bungie have drastically improved in bringing things down to an acceptable and still usable level, compared to the ye old nerf into oblivion ways of the past. If that continues to be the trend then the downward spiral as mentioned above is very much overdramatic. Bungo be bungo though so either could happen, I know which has been more likely over the years...

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    • [quote]no[/quote]

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    • Edited by Infamous067: 8/16/2019 3:52:28 AM
      Im pretty sure the well boost players by 50% not 35%, I could be wrong

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    • They’ll nerf it, no doubt.

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    • I agree with all of this but I would like the other warlock supers to be able to shine in raids, etc

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    • Well is better than bubble ever was. Well not only gives you and overshield, but rapidly regenerates health, auto-reloads weapons (with exotic) and you can sit still instead of having to move in and out of the bubble. Bubble is inferior in all boss damage situations except for a couple infrequent encounters in the game. Well is basically a one stop shop for extended boss damage.

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      • [quote]9. "Well Datto has a point" Nobody gave a shit about Lunas, wells, or rifts before Datto posted his bullshit rage bait nonsense video about it. Nobody cared if a warlock had a well and Lunas. These were not issues that needed to be fixed. It's just a bored streamer in mid August playing a game nobody is gonna care about for another 2 months with no content to make so he invented a problem and complained about it. Content creators in YouTube do that literally all the time. It's not a real problem, he just needs a paycheck and chose Wells to complain about this time. Nothing he said made any actual sense to a warlock main who actually plays this game. [/quote] Ahahaha. Wrong. This is the part where you are out of touch of the raiding playerbase and it smacks you right into your teeth. Even Warlocks have been complaining about well since Riven. This has been MOOOONTHS of complaints. You a warlock in a LFG group? Go well. Don't want to go well? Cool, booted from fireteam. Chaos reach is great boss DPS, nova bomb coupled with tractor cannon still shreks, so WHY aren't people playing these subclasses in end game activity? Because Well is an overtuned party wide DPS buff. 35% party wide dps buff is MAAAAAASSSIVE. That is the highest PvE party buff I have ever seen in any game with a raid. Lol, at max it should be 10% like all other buffs have been for decades. Once you break that 10% rule you make it a meta required pick to the community.

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        • Sandboxes just simply need to change from time to time in order to keep the game feeling fresh and the way to do that is to tune down the most powerful things (one of which is Well of Radiance in the current iteration of the sandbox) and to make the less powerful/ infrequently used things more powerful. You could argue to leave Well of Radiance alone and make other things equally as strong or stronger but then you run into the issue of power creep. Everything is so strong that you walk through any end game content with ease. At which point they would have to make all encounters more difficult to compensate and produce the same effect as just nerfing Well of Radiance, only with far more effort.

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        • Edited by Hatter: 8/15/2019 5:25:49 AM
          Ok. I main warlock. The simple thing is this: I don't always want to be asked to run well. nor do I want content that forces me to use well. I still want challenging content (I love hard content), but I don't want impossible content without well. That is it issue dammit. It's not the numbers, it's what it effects, dude. The mindset it drives. The future battles.

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          • [quote]In D1, raid bosses and mechanics forced movement frequently.[/quote] Note that the following are in reference to damage phases, the only moments when you would use WoR. Templar encounter: one person moved around with relic while the five others stayed in one spot the whole time. Atheon encounter: one person made a protective bubble while the five other stayed in one spot the whole time. Deathsinger encounter: she died instantly and required no movement unless she decided to go around the crystal thingy like a jerk. Crota encounter: one person had a relic while the five others stayed in one spot. Warpriest encounter: everyone stays in one spot the whole time. Golgoroth encounter: first exception as players move around but it’s the same as the Calus encounter so let’s cancel them out since you claim that D2 encounter forced you in one spot. Deathsingers encounter: all players in one spot the whole time. Oryx encounter: all players in one spot the whole time. Archon priest encounter: all players in one spot the whole time. Aksis encounter: all players in one spot the whole time assuming they are using swords which is what everyone always did. Nostalgia has blinded you.

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            • I would like the feeling not having to be forced or looked down upon because I’m not using well, while I think it should be toned down a little, mainly, bungie [b]needs[/b] to rework their mechanics for raids

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              • If you're not using a well of radiance warlock on your raid team then you guys are handicapping yourselves. Without auto reload just think, you probably couldn't 1 phase riven unless you all had 1k, or used the hunter combo. Crown of sorrows could not be one phased. Encounters would actually require you to think. Weapon dps will also rely on how fast it can reload. Getting rid of auto reload would benefit pve a lot.

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              • TLDR. You think you actually know more about the game than Datto? that is hilarious.. 1. Datto is a Youtube streamer. Do you know what Youtube is my friend? I'm pretty sure he knows more about the game than you do. Considering Youtube pays him money to play this game. 2. Datto has put probably thousands more hours into the game than you. Respect your elders. 3. Datto has fabulous luminous LGBT pink flowing hair. All the pro gamers on Youtube have funny coloured hair. This signifies their credentials as professional gamers. If you think your opinion matters against a youtube god with bright luminous dyed hair then you are very naive. 4. Nerf Warlocks.

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                • I play all 3 classes and I think it needs nerfed. Tired of being asked to do well when it’s the least fun of all the supers. Also your characters are pathetic. Not an argument just an observation.

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                • Love this!

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                • Bump

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                • It makes no sense to think Well use will change if boss design doesn't.

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                • Babyrage lol get a job

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                • My guess is if there is a "nerf" it will probably just be that damage buffs only stack up to a certain amount. Kind of like the power level limitations in worlds first raid races now. I doubt there would be an actual nerf to well.

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                • I genuinely thought the reload rift and the rally are dumb. D1 damage was at least feasible back then. And many people thought well has been too strong. I’ve had several people mention it when forsaken first came out and when reckoning released. I’ve always thought getting rid of the reload was a bad idea. Ever since year 1. It’s the same reason why spindle was great in every activity in D1. I do agree they need to pull back on celestial and on the melee damage. My guess is they are completely changing damage values on a lot of stuff like nighthawk and the melee stuff. The main problem with well is not the well itself, but the lunafaction boots. Why do you think smith specifically called that and rally out. Because of the reload. My best guess based on all of the info? Stacking will work a lot differently. Maybe some will be toned down or something and not stack with other things. Well will remain the same or be reworked. The main thing that gonna be nerfed? Lunafaction boots and rally barricade. The auto loading creates a lazy gameplay environment where all you have to do to any problem is point and hold down the button. Back in destiny 1 at least black spindle was kinda balanced because you had to hit all crits. Finally, let’s not blame some random streamer. Slayerage called this out much before Datto and same with Glad I believe. And it looks like Bungie has been working on this since reckoning, well before there was any talk of nerfing well. You think this much work was decided upon because some streamer talked about it a week or two ago?

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                • Edited by Zauries: 8/16/2019 12:26:53 AM
                  I think the issue is more so encounters being designed around the use of well and thus by nature being extremely difficult without it. As Luke smith stated this is how the bridge of folly encounter was designed and look how much that activity is despised. Yes there are ways around it and ways to win without well as you pointed out, but when I’m dying to melees launching me off a cliff and an ogres eye blast killing me in milliseconds because I was expected to be standing in a constant healing well that gives me a damage buff, I’m not having fun. Bubble, in my opinion, was an issue in D1 as well because it made nearly every encounter static, and yes in part that has to do with encounter design, but still an issue nonetheless. With well that problem is exasperated due to its constantly healing on top of giving you and overshield and you can stand in it and shoot while protected. I may want to run a raid without well, but if I have to LFG 3-5 people for it chances are, I’ll get a warlock who will insist on it, or people will leave if we don’t. It’s the same issue gjallarhorn had, when it’s the best option, it becomes the only option for a majority of players and that makes the game feel limited.

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                • I like this guy. I actually read all of this post too. Warlocks are gonna get clipped. It just seems inevitable because of all the bashing. Very unfortunate because they're my favorite class to play.

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                • Just make a raid boss that moves around a lot. Like Shuro Chi or something.

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