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Edited by twirlypen: 8/14/2019 1:32:03 AM
180

This is why everyone is "mad at Datto"

Tl;dr - stop blaming Datto and other creators for having opinions and voicing them. Be mad at Bungie for making theirs the only ones that matter. ------------------------------- The issue everyone has is that hundreds, sometimes THOUSANDS of regular people come here with feedback that goes completely ignored and unaddressed for years in some cases. Exhibit A: Mars resonate stems and how friggen annoying and tedious it is to get 40/40. Posts regarding this continue to be made and have been made since Warmind first came out 16 months ago. Datto makes ONE VIDEO about Well dominating pve fireteam composition (which it is), and Bungie addresses it almost instantaneously. Bungie will ignore the medium sized army of feedback for eternity, blinders secured, waiting for what their favorite youtubers have to say. THIS is what everyone should be pissed off about.
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  • He also mentioned slayerages video on the reckons and well. Not seeing slayerage getting flamed much of at all. All feels very personal

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  • In my opinion the changes were already in motion before... it wouldn't surprise me if Datto was approached by bungie to put a video out; the idea being that he could potentially soften the blow, maybe? Alternatively, he may have found out about this and decided to put a video out to reinforce 'I know what's best' onto his minions. Or, it could just be his opinion and it just happened to come at the same time... crazy right!!! Whatever happened, he's now the scape goat!

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    • I main a lock he trash

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    • Edited by Odin: 8/15/2019 2:42:38 AM
      14
      [quote]Tl;dr - stop blaming Datto and other creators for having opinions and voicing them. Be mad at Bungie for making theirs the only ones that matter.[/quote] So knowing Bungie offered Datto a job, invites him to do a live stream, etc... to talk shop, takes his advice over the entire player base that some say is up to a million, and you're saying this is all on Bungie that Datto had nothing to do with some the poor changes in this game? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca9GuwuOVZc Edit: IMO If a company has to use streamers after (12 years of working on a project) to try to figure out what to do or where to go with the game? They don't belong making the game anymore... Edit: When will people get that muting someone means I can't and don't care to see their reply 😂

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      • [quote]Dispelling the myth that Well needs nerfed A LOT of people don't understand how math works. 1. A well adds 35% damage per player and it does not stack. If a fireteam of 6 people deal a total of 1000 damage, the well increases that to 1350 damage. If each guardian is doing 1000 damage, each guardian does 1350 damage x 6 = 8100 damage, 35% higher than the 6000 they would've done without a well. You're not doing 210% more damage and percentages don't "add up" like that you uneducated morons. 2. "It makes the game worse because all you do is sit in a well and fire" Inaccurate. Bungie keeps creating encounters where the most logical thing to do is sit in a well and spam fire. Nerfing it doesn't make encounters anymore difficult, simply longer because guardians are dealing less damage. In fact, with a worse well, you're just spamming the fire button for a longer period of time, making the encounter more tedious. In D1, raid bosses and mechanics forced movement frequently. Well doesn't work in King's Fall or Wrath of the Machine because you have to run around and do shit basically the whole time. It works in EOW because the boss' crit spot faces one direction, it doesn't move, and neither do you for the whole damage phase. *Edit* In the instances where well would've worked in D1, people DID use Titan bubbles which were functionally identical. It buffed weapons making for quicker encounters and made you invulnerable to damage. The only difference was the 19 pixel strafe to get into and out of the Bubble. Nobody called for nerfs to the Bubble because "every raid encounter needs a bubble!". Stop bringing it up, you will lose that comparison. 3. "It's broken or whatever the non warlock mains keep saying " There's a video of a hunter one shot meleeing a raid boss to death. There are videos of 6 hunters killing Calus and finishing EOW in under 15 seconds with celestial nighthawk and golden gun spam. Some dumb ass streamer wants to talk about a well of radiance that helps guardians finish an event approximately 35% faster and THAT'S the broken thing Bungie fixes? Sorry, but no. Hunters have been leaning on Celestial Nighthawk since D1 and do things with it that warlocks can only dream about. You can break various aspects of this game with all characters. 4. "it's still broken cuz you can one phase bosses" We were one phasing every raid encounter back in Y1 with regular rifts before well ever existed and nobody complained then. You can one phase any strike boss with a well coordinated fireteam without a warlock present at all. Blinding Wells aren't any harder without them and, frankly, the only reason they're useful in Leviathan is because of the reload mechanic with Lunas while shooting skulls during the Calus encounter. 5. "Something something warlocks are OP" You can still beat a prestige EOW final encounter in under 20 seconds with 6 hunters. Can't do that with 6 warlocks. Careful where you toss your OP badge, idiots. Celestial Nighthawk + one guy to tether with Orpheus Rig was the original one phase cheese and you can still mostly do it. 6. "Phoenix Protocol means infinite rifts!" No, you (the warlock) have to kill/assist mobs to generate the new super energy. If there are none (or very few), you get no super energy and it's a useless exotic. Never mind that most self respecting warlocks wear Lunafaction boots to raids and have since year 1, before well ever existed. The infinite well trick only works in the blind well and that's assuming you put it in the right place and get bullets in most of the bad guys that appear. The exotic doesn't just give you free super energy for existing. It's not Bernie Sanders armor. 7. "You're functionally invincible in a well" In PvE, maybe. It's a super after all. They're not called "mediocres". However, in PvP, you absolutely are not invincible. It being mostly useless in pvp because of the fast TTK is why lost of us use nova bombs or the other solar super. 7. "Datto is popular and everything he says is right." Datto gets paid money to play a game you all paid for and play without monetary gain. He is not you, he does not represent you, and his views only serve himself and his popularity. They should NEVER be a guide Bungie uses to dictate mechanics to the rest of the player base, none of whom play the game as often or for the same reasons as a damn streamer. This is his job. It is our hobby. He does not and will never want the same things we do. 8. "Nerf Lunafaction boots" If you nerf Lunas, then OEM, Celestial Nighthawk, and basically every other good exotic better -blam!-ing well be on that list too. Either you burn everybody or leave well enough alone. The effects people whine about are all a combination of an exotic piece of gear and a SUPER. the well isn't infinite without exotic armor and it doesn't reload your weapons without exotic boots. Take into consideration that most players don't get paid money to play the game like Datto or play the game for 4000 hours like many of you. A lot of people don't have those exotics and are staring down the barrel of a super being made pointless for a reason they never got to experience. 9. "Well Datto has a point" Nobody gave a shit about Lunas, wells, or rifts before Datto posted his bullshit rage bait nonsense video about it. Nobody cared if a warlock had a well and Lunas. These were not issues that needed to be fixed. It's just a bored streamer in mid August playing a game nobody is gonna care about for another 2 months with no content to make so he invented a problem and complained about it. Content creators in YouTube do that literally all the time. It's not a real problem, he just needs a paycheck and chose Wells to complain about this time. Nothing he said made any actual sense to a warlock main who actually plays this game. 10. "Well something something pinnacle events well of radiance" You're just salty that nobody cares about your rally barracades anymore. Keep in mind that this is a SUPER with an EXOTIC paired together and Titan and Hunter mains have no problems coming into this community to defend their crutches (One Eyed Mask, for instance). 11. "Bungie is gonna do it anyway" Yeah, screw that miserable company. Why would anybody buy Shadowkeep if they're gonna grind and grind for good stuff just to have it nerfed every time some whiny brat streamer makes a cry video about it. Whatever. -blam!- you, Bungie. 12. "It makes the game boring" No, the game is already boring. Well just made it faster and easier, which is what a Super is supposed to -blam!-ing do. Sure the argument is made that it forces players to play somewhat differently, the fact remains that exotic + super combinations are used as crutches by all subclasses in all aspects of the game. It's disingenuous to single out solar-locks with Lunas when Titans and Hunters also have broken ass mechanics with exotics and supers. Why not change how they play too? Or has this dwindling community somehow, some way not gotten tired of Jotunn noobs or sliding-shotgun titans with OEMs? *edit* Adding one more 13. "It adds variety to the game" This one is difficult to argue in a vacuum because a lot of us do use Well in the same circumstances (mostly raid encounters). However, there are many items, supers, and mechanics that dictate how people play. OEM + Dusk Rock Blues Titans are still an overwhelming favorite for PvP players. Machine Guns and 1k Voices are immensely popular by invaders in Gambit. Hell, guardians cheese Flashpoint by intentionally not doing the public event (and not letting anyone do it) so they can fast travel back and redo the event a second time. People will skip to the end of Last Wish to farm 1k voices and not even do the rest of the raid. And the complaint is that Well reduces the number of ways people play? Thus, the idea of Nerfing well for the sake of "variety" while ignoring all of the other game breaks, cheeses, and gear/supers that dictate how people play is basically just an absurd witch hunt dreamt up by a guy who just needed something to talk about in August when there's nothing to talk about in this game. "I like fixes as long as long as it doesn't change how I play" is a bad reason to change how thousands of people play a video game and "because a streamer said so" is not respecting the people who paid $100+ for this game and all its DLC. Streamers aren't representatives. We did not vote for them.[/quote] He pretty much nailed it I don´t know if im allowed to write his name here but i really would like to give him credits but his post is on the forums anyways...

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      • Am I not the only one who thought Bungie actually threw Datto under the bus? I hadn't read the directors cut until this morning, and I watch Datto and seen the video when it was first put out. Most people wouldn't have known about his video until Bungie referenced it. Its like big lights, signs pointed at Datto after making their point. Surely it makes sense that people then associate him with partially being an "influence", even if he wasn't.

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      • Nah, we shouldnt be mad at streamers. They dont make decisions based on streamers. It's simple as that. Datto had extremely valid points. The designers of the game heard this feedback, somthing which many people (non streamers too GASP??!!) like myself have expressed. They are now acting on this based on feedback and data. Well is OP, there is no "debate" to be had. Its Overpowered and it needs to be tuned down for the health of the game.

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        • >Luke Smith makes long, detailed example of why Well of radiance was against their original combat design, and why it was breaking the game. >Luke provides direct evidence by addressing Reckoning mechanics. >Luke implies upcoming content will be designed around upcoming changes. Destiny 2 forums: ... this is Datto’s fault I love how the majority of the people on these forums are sub-80 IQ, and think a multi-million dollar game company would base their decisions off one streamy-boy.

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          • Edited by RingersCheckmate: 8/16/2019 2:11:46 AM
            I don't think the whole director's cut was made because Datto made a video about PvE being easy. I will say that I agree with his points about all warlocks being forced to use Well of Radiance with lunafactions, especially in LFG teams. It's beyond dominant, and I don't quite know the solution. Bungie agrees with datto's points, I don't think that's because datto streams their game. I think they've got numbers of an overwhelming majority of warlocks running dawnblade middle tree in 90% of their activities, Datto just made a video before the director's cut and Bungie linked it. We don't know what Bungie's ideas are yet, and until we do I'm not convinced that warlocks can't use well of radiance after their patch. I am overall pleased with the directors cut, and I'm not screaming about the well changes until I know exactly how they deal with it.

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          • Edited by Ultravile__: 8/15/2019 10:21:17 AM
            While this might be kinda true I think Bungie just have priorities with the KINDS of things they want to fix sooner rather than later. When we're about to enter a new season with new DLC it's pretty fair to assume their focus is on the balance changes they want to make... SO instead of playing lucky dip on the Forums and hoping for a kind and informative post... They go to the 13 minute long video made by a respected YouTuber who is well known for being smart and mathematical. Not to mention... Bungie are friends with these people as they have invited them out to Bungie HQ multiple times for events and previews. If I were Bungie I know who I would listen to if I had to choose between a forum filled with angry, toxic people... And a well spoken, respectful YouTuber.

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            • Datto and the other streamers don’t create content. They show you somebody else’s content By that logic you are a content creator if you invite people to your house to watch the superbowl And honestly, why anybody would watch these tools let alone pay them is beyond me

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              • Mate, you can make a post and say: 2+2=4 And people will disagree with you and think that the 4 is somehow a cashgrab.

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                • 14
                  Those youtubers will always be crying kids. They can all go to f**** off [b]Say with me: Youtuber, influencer, streamer are NOT actual jobs[/b] You are just a crying kid with a microphone.

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                  • Edited by Poopschtick: 8/14/2019 7:52:50 PM
                    If by nerfing WOR, all hard encounters will finally be challenging and it's not the same old schtick of everyone assembling together to do DPS, while being immortal to any kind of damage, completing chore after chore? If that so, then I hope bungie nerf's it to the ground! Aren't you bored already? Try new builds for god sake! 🙄 I know it won't be easy as your kind wants everything to be easy. Thank you Datto 🙏

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                    • Datto should complain about the stomp mechanic and architects. That's what really needs a nerf

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                      • I also find it strange that the youtube commentary I’ve seen only talks about the power we’ve gained. BUT, while out powers / weapons have gotten stronger since D2 Vanilla — our guardians survivability (outside of a Well) has been scaled towards us being weaker. Also being over-leveled for content has a SIGNIFICANTLY smaller impact than being under-leveled. I mean, EXPONENTIALLY. Being over-leveled by 25 is much less impactful than being under-leveled by 15. Or being At Recommended Level. This plays a part in why your team tells you, “hey... we don’t need Nova, we need WELL!” Then there’s the fact Titans have been pushed into “the melee class” away from their true (canon) place as the leader of the Vanguard. Their support ability is tied to punching stuff (on void and solar class), and no longer to protecting their beloved allies the way it was in D1. And it seems, based on Luke’s language in the letter, that rally barricades are about to be nerfed too. Hunters are very situational in their support, outside of Tether. Smoke bombs are Okay. But, overall, it falls on Warlocks to be “The Mage”, which often means healing, buff and protection, not DPS. This is what naturally happens when you go towards, “Scout class” “Melee class” “Mage class”. Also doesn’t help that palpatine hands is not that good against Bosses, especially with the ridiculous stomp mechanics that bump you even if you aren’t that close.

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                      • The real problem is that the large streamers and youtubers, as well as Bungie employees enjoy the game through a completely different lens than the average player. I playtest games. I know what it’s like to play in a “build environment” vs “the game”. It’s different, and you go in with a different mindset. That said, PUBLIC playtests pre-release offer critical feedback that can help avoid MANY of the weapon, economy, and time investment problems THIS game has experienced. This issue becomes most apparent usually around the bigger content drops when glaring / obvious problems start to arise that they obviously have not considered. But, it’s because the feedback they get at tradeshows and summits is from a different class of player. Gambit is a good example of this. They went in and played with all different types of weapons, and explored the mode. But when it got into the hands of the avg player, it instantly became spamming Linear Fusions and nothing else. Completely caught them off guard lol. Certain things they just don’t really experience firsthand, especially when it comes to issues around clans, matchmaking, and trying to complete more difficult content. He can talk about Warlocks being forced to play Well in Raids, for example. But, look at your trophies... in context, only 3% of players have completed the Last Wish Raid. 9.6% for The Leviathan, half that for Prestige. Heck, less than 25% of players have even got all the exotics from D2 Vanilla to drop. On the flipside, the more elite players if you watch their videos consistently they are much more concerned with efficiency. What’s THE most efficient loadout, for example So while the avg player is upset about Masterwork cores, they have stacks of them. His, and others, concern was, “I still feel the need to use Midnight Coup and IKELOS Shotgun. They’re too powerful.” Why? There’s plenty of other guns to use that kill ads and bosses just as fast. “But these are mathematically the most efficient!” Who cares about math? D2 is not really built as a min-max game... play with what’s satisfying and fun. Those types of attitudes are why people end up feeling pressured to use Well, or cannot get in an LFG because they don’t have 50 clears and a Gjallarhorn by Week 3 of the raid. And Luke Smith using The Reckoning as an example was.... a bad example. It’s just not good design. Period. The boss encounters are okay, but, the Bridge is like a bad riff on crota’s end. And YET AGAIN, it fell into the same pattern that plays into the overuse of ammo tricks and wells... it’s built to have you stand in ONE specific spot, surrounded by overpowered enemies, and dump DPS on Bosses that don’t do much but walk, melt, stomp. Players have been saying it’s the boss design since D1. This feedback has largely been ignored, with a couple of exceptions — parts of Wrath of the Machine and Leviathan. Maybe the Vex boss in the Menagerie. All of these encounters, dropping a Well is cool for a moment but you are forced to MOVE Alot more... leaving that well or rift behind. Players have been saying it’s the ammo system for the longest. We’re still playing the same game in different ways though. Players said, we want the innovations from Rise of Iron back. Glow Armor... we got it, But... armor glow and ornaments did not go into the game earnable from activities, it went into Eververse. We got strike loot... but we didn’t get skeleton keys, we got Nightfall drops with .000001% chance of dropping. We didn’t get relics in patrol, or record books, raid refreshes, etc. That is not to say Bungie doesn’t listen sometimes, they do. For example, I think the Black Armory was a response to the longstanding request to iterate on the weapon forge from Curse Of Osiris. And, of course, ultimately D2’s current weapon system exists because of the feedback against D2 Vanilla. But that didn’t happen in a vacuum. That system happened because of ideas Luke Smith expressed publicly way back during Taken King, all the way up to the end of life nerfs that happened for essentially no reason other than to prepare everyone for what was to come. So, the issue is much larger than a Datto or Slayer. What this game really needs is a Public Test Server, because it’s glaring everytime content drops that has problems which end up getting reversed that they have been caught off-guard by it.

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                      • Saw that vid. Datto made some decent points in it, but I didn't think WoR was one of them. What he seems to have overlooked is that any content becomes less of a challenge once you "git gud" but that plenty of the content is still a challenge for the rest of us. OF COURSE WoR dominates any party composition. In every such game, you need support characters for the more challenging content. Hopefully the WoL update will bring some alternatives and give titans something to do other than MP. Totally agree though that it has shown Bungie's bias towards the streaming community and by comparison we mere mortals on the forums get -blam!- all acknowledgement, and yeah, I'm as pissed about that as everyone else is. A big example: still not a single word from Bungie about doing anything about the state of PvP or matchmaking or dedicated servers or the broken economy (baryon boughs, how tedious trading mats at Spider is etc). Even when they do "listen" (like changing the 100 mini boss crap) it was probably to some other streamer that they didn't mention, and not a word that "yeah you were right" or even a single tip of the hat to the forums. When was the last time Bungie even answered a single one of the comments? In there defense though, it is pretty toxic in here most of the time...

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                      • Then the other supers need to be viable for end game. There's no point in doing chaos reach because one shot golden gun does more damage. Why would I be a detriment to my raid team by not running the only viable super for warlocks. If Well is getting Nerf then other super/exotic combos needs to be looked at for other classes to be tone down.

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                      • Have you ever thought they may be using actual data, and not just listening to the ‘evil streamer’? Because well is absurdly dominant in endgame PvE, to the point where it broke the game. It should never have been added in the first place.

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                      • So? You finished? [b]THEN LET ME GET THUS RIGHT HERE CLEAR. IF YOU DISLIKE THAT OTHERS WITH MORE POPULARITY AND AGREEMENT FROM PLAYERS VOICE THE FEEDBACK, THEN DO IT YOURSELF. MAKE A YOUTUBE CHANNEL. GATHER THE COMMUNITY AROUND YOU AND THEN, IF YOU ARE ASKED FOR FEEDBACK, DELIVER IT THE WAY YOU THINK IT IS RIGHT. [/b] Besides that, you should know that game design involves more jus than feedback. It involves also psychological and logistical decisions. When you make a game, you want to people not just buy it, you want them to come back. Every time. Also, on a sidenote, if something is perfectly balanced, it doesn't help the game. Look at Skyrim. It IS a masterwork and also an almost perfect game. The most people play it in long sessions. Between those sessions are MONTHS of not playing it. If Destiny would be like that then every content release would be the high time and after you got what you want, you would just walk away and wait for the next dlc. And you should know that you can't mske a game of this size for everyone. That's like asking to make a paradox none.

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                      • Edited by RANGERX117: 8/15/2019 1:59:47 PM
                        [quote] ------------------------------- Datto makes ONE VIDEO about Well dominating pve fireteam composition (which it is) [/quote] This pretty much shoots down that argument https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/253191836?sort=0&page=0

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                      • He’s that one brown nosing kid in class who votes against the pizza party and because the teacher likes him so much it gets canceled. He’s that kid who gets nose bleeds when playing in recess so recess gets canceled and turned into quiet time. He’s that kid who didn’t want to watch the movie Glory in History class because it’s too violent. He’s that kid that’s lactose intolerant so the ice cream party is changed to lactose free plain yogurt party...

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                      • It’s just power creep, activities are not fun when they’re based around well. Reckoning, heroic menagerie flawless r impossible without well, and that’s not fun having to rely on one super to do well

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                      • Dattos right tho the damage stacking and well is way out of control. Back in the glory days all you had was you’re own build and skill to get through and a titan bubble, now it’s like -blam!-in easy mode with all this garbage

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                        • Well is a big uses to everything but so was bubble in d1 and it hardly got complaints so why bother. I am worried there nerf warlock so bad there become useless

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