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Discuss all things Destiny 2.
Edited by KaptainWilly: 8/14/2019 5:19:05 AM
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Making a Class Weaker Isn't Helping Them. You're Making a Big Mistake...

***TLDR***---There is a long, detailed segment in this post. If you just want the main ideas, stop reading when you get to the big italic quote. If you've read part 1 of Director's Cut by Luke Smith, then you'll know what I'm talking about. If not, I'll sum it up for you: a little while back, a certain well-known Youtuber/Streamer made a "rant" about some things in Destiny 2. Around half of that rant was directed at Well of Radiance, and he basically said that its broken and needs a nerf to make the game too easy. Some other content creators and players have voiced similar opinions, and think that Well of Radiance is restricting Warlocks to always use it, therefore making other supers irrelevant. This isn't true, but we'll get to that. Anywho, in the writing from Smith, it becomes apparent that they are siding with [the streamer] and feel the Well needs "adjustments". Both Luke Smith and the content creators have pitched this nerf as a sort of "saving grace" for Warlocks, saying that it frees us to use whatever we want. This logic is [i]beyond broken[/i]. Take a moment and think about what they're saying--[i]we're gonna make your character worse, and thats gonna be good for you[/i]. I know I'm not the only one who sees issues here. Quite simply, nothing good comes from a nerf to Well. Sure, some players might have the illusion of choice as to what they use, but they're gonna be stuck using things that aren't ideal. If you wanna run a raid with Chaos Reach in the future, guess what? It'll be the same as running a raid with Chaos Reach now (unless they decide to buff the other Warlock supers). Since thats no different, why not just [i]run the raid with the super you want [b]now?[/b][/i] I also wrote a long response to another post earlier, concerning the fact that players really don't always have to use Well. I'm just gonna copy and paste that here, and that'll be all. [i]"Again, you're argument is just assumptions and generalities that don't hold ground. If we look solely at PvE, what requires the Well? Lets take a look at the Raids: Last Wish: The strategies for Shuro Chi, Morgeth, and Riven all center around a Well, while it is also frequently used against Kalli as a means to speed up the encounter. While it is useful, it is not "necessary", and is no more difficult to do without the Well. That leaves 3/6 encounters using a Well as a primary strategic piece, yet it does have to be noted that it improves the chances of a one phase. Its also important to note that only Shuro Chi usually calls for two Wells, while the rest of the encounters typically use one and then fill in the gaps with rally Barricades and rifts. So, in this raid, 3 encounters require a Well for the fastest completion, with an option for a 4th. Scourge of the Past: Heavily utilizes Well in Boss Phase 2 against Insurrection Prime (in fact, this is the most Well-heavy encounter in Year 2). Ideally you'd have 3 Wells, although most runs do it with 1-2 Wells and Rally Barricades due to a lack of Warlocks. No other encounters in Scourge of the Past "require" Well of Radiance. Crown of Sorrow: Like Scourge, Well is heavily used during the damage phase of the final boss. The need is less intense though--some teams will use 2 Wells, but often times you use one Well, and then luna-rifts and Rally Barricades when the Well expires. Sometimes Well is used on the first boss phase, but is far from a requirement due to the short bursts of damage and the mobility of the boss. It is more of a preference thing, and most times you see teams rely more on Rally Barricades and Luna Rifts, leaving the Warlock to use Nova Bomb in combination with a tractor cannon. So, if we count all raid encounters in Year 2, and get rid of the non-combat sections (the Sparrow section in Scourge of the Past, and the jumping puzzle in Crown of Sorrows), it leaves us with 12 combat based encounters total: Last Wish has 6 (Kalli, Shuro Chi, Morgeth, Vault, Riven, Queenswalk), Scourge of the Past has 3 (Rooftops, and Boss Phase 1 and 2), and Crown of Sorrow has 3 (Vessels, Deceptions, and Gahlran). Of these 12 encounter, only 5 use Well as a "necessary" part of their strategy, although you could factor in Kalli as well and call it 6. So lets say 6/12 encounters use the Well, which is half of year two raid encounters. Now, lets compare this to something else--say, the Hunter's Golden Gun with Celestial Nighthawk. This is used on all boss damage phases, no exceptions, so that checks off Riven, Insurrection Prime, and Gahlran--3 encounters. It is also the most used Hunter super throughout the rest of CoS, as it is the best way to quickly take down Ogres, so you can add Vessels and Deceptions into that pool. Moving along, Celestial is almost always used during both Kalli and Morgeth in Last Wish, as no other supers are really needed. Against Kalli, it is frequent to see a Tether to handle thrall during DPS phase, but there is almost always only one player running this, and the rest run Celestial. That totals to 6 or 7 out of 12 year 2 encounters pushing Hunters to use Celestial--which is greater than or equal to the number of encounters that "require" Well. So why am I going into all of this? Well for one, I looked at your profile on Raid Report. I didn't do it to judge you or anything--I think everyone can play or not play whatever they want. However, I wanted to see what your experience was like as a baseline for the discussion, and sure enough I saw that you haven't raided in 78 weeks, and haven't touched a year 2 raid. Again, I'm not saying this to be offensive and I how you don't take it that way, I mean no disrespect. It is very relevant to the discussion though--raids are supposed to be the pinnacle of endgame PvE, and what your talking about is a nerf that almost solely affects PvE. If you don't raid, then the only modes that really "require" a Well are Reckoning and Heroic Menagerie, so that's barely scratching the surface of endgame PvE. Forges, Blind Well, Gambit, and Strikes don't require a Well at all--you'll occasionally see one here or there (with Forges at the highest rate, Strikes at the lowest), but it is not "necessary" by any definition of the word. I asked you to provide factual evidence to support a nerf of Well, saying how it hurts the game/players and how the nerf would make things better. Your response is still just hypothetical talk, saying that "content will be designed around Well". I understand the remarks about Sunsinger and Bubble in D1, but that doesn't automatically apply here. You don't nerf stuff proactively--thats how you ruin stuff unnecessarily. Instead, you nerf it reactively--when there is actual evidence of something hurting the game, you tone it down. [b]That[/b] is why OEM and Striker need adjustments--they have been hurting players for ages (almost a year in the case of OEM). You say we demand nerfs for any outlier in Destiny--again, this is a false statement. Literally nobody asked for Whisper to be nerfed, and nobody wanted to see adjustments to Orpheus Rig, Phoenix Protocol, or Skull of Dire Ahamkara (unless they reaaaalllly hated Warlocks, and I do think Skull could've been toned down a tad but not this much). The only nerfs hat 99.9999% of people ever want are PvP nerfs, because that when things give players an unfair advantage over other players--in other words, "hurting" the players, and therefore the game. Well doesn't hurt anybody, and literally nobody benefits from it being nerfed. Therefore, nerfing the Well [b]will[/b] hurt the players, and consequently the game."[/i]
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  • After Bungie nerfs well, players will just find something else, as always.

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  • I will say he's not wrong about people demanding you use well in raids. I once went into COS with 4 other warlocks and they threatened to kick me for using nova...

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  • I wish someone at Bungie would read this. I agree with you completely. First, the problem is not well at all. People calling for this nerf is a symptom to a greater problem that is Boss Encounter Mechanics. They are poor to put it mildly. Second, why is no one talking about celestial nighthawk golden gun? That super is absolutely required in almost every single encounter in the game. My friend who is a hunter main has been criticized so frequently for not using this combo that he'd have been kicked almost every raid if I wasn't host. But me? A warlock main? I swear to you that I have never once been demanded or criticized for not using well. Not once. I'm pretty sure the YouTubers/streamers claiming this happens is false. Or at least happens far less then they say. Third, and this is a bit of a tangent so I apologise for this. These nerfs are ruining the warlock class one nerf at a time. Nova warp. Did we need it. Absolutely, it was way out of bounds. Did they go too far? Yep. Did they fix it? Kinda. Pvp it's meh. Pve? Why are you using it in Pve? Now let's talk about that skull nerf. Was it needed? Yes. Did they go too far? Absolutely. Voidwalker isn't even on my radar nowadays. It brings nothing to the table outside of devour. Think about that, one ability that's not even connected to the super is the only thing that has some value. Amazing. When/if they nerf well we're in trouble. I'm talking Titan levels of trouble. The only class that will have meaningful purpose is Hunter. You'll just see LFG posts saying "Hunters only". This is it for Bungie. They say they want this game to be an mmo but an mmo has diverse builds that are useful in some places and useless in others. We're moving pretty quickly to being useless everywhere outside of Hunter. I guess time will tell.

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    • Well if they nerf it I think they should give up on any support ideas. The more I read these things the more I question if anyone understands what a support is. Surprisingly it is made to make any content easier. You can say it has too much in it but it is a super, you know those things that people tend to want to be powerful?, and it is stuck in one place after using and leaving it doesn't let you keep the buff. Now do people say it's a problem? Apparently raids..... the same raids that usually have your team stand in one place shooting a boss that doesnt really move at all or do anything during the damage phase..... now why is it not a problem in strikes and gambit? Simple because everything moves around. While you have strikes where the boss moves slowly or have an open area you also have ones where the boss moves a lot, teleports, and even has cover it will run to. In gambit a well can be a double edged sword for you. While it can let you deal a decent amount of damage to a boss but if your team just stays there you'll be easy picking for an invader with 1k voices or truth. Not to mention a taken oger primeval basically knocking you out of it constantly. Now then why is this the main super so many get either forced into or feel they have to use it. What are our alternatives? Either a slowva that until it hits the boss will probably prevent you from shooting because it will more than likely be in the way and shooting it means you pop it too early and ruin the damage potential. Vortex nova that has a kinda crappy range, also don't know for sure but pretty sure no one wants either option for riven. Next we have stormcaller both top and bottom for damage phase is not really gonna be ideal due to range and actual damage. Yes top tree can have clearing abilities and what not but is gonna end up feeling lacking in a boss fight encounter. Chaos reach is the best option for the boss fighting sections and is pretty good but unlike a celestial gg you wont generate orbs for everyone else and the damage is less and spread out over time instead of instant and then you fire. Now dawnblade, we will exclude the normal just fighting ads blah blah blah. The super still isn't all that great right now damage wise compared to what we can do with dps weapons. This one is subject to change though with solar week. If warlocks are being pushed into one super then it's because of either our supers much like a good amount of titans is lacking for these encounters and making some feel it is the only option. Other than it is the rest of the raid team saying they have to use it or they're gonna be kicked because they want it more than the person playing. The second reason is obvious for why, it's because its efficient and people want the support class to buff them.

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    • My chief concern with a nerf to Well of Radiance lies in what they plan to do with it. We all know that Bungie is notorious for either over doing it or just not doing enough, essentially wasting their effort. I don't Raid so any input I have on it would be invalid. But I do enjoy using Well in PvE activites to help out the random players I get grouped with. This whole nerf thing is a crock. Bungie blames "themselves" for creating a situation that we use to easily down a boss. Well I can tell you all that for an average player like myself enemies can still maul me to death while standing in a Well. Just because elite players can one phase a boss with Well does not make it OP. Maybe you guys at Bungie should take a good look at boss mechanics instead of choosing to cripple a super that's meant to be a super.

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      • You don't need a well anywhere in scourge, you don't even need rally barricades on any part of it. The fact is you don't need any particular subclass as they all have their merits. The reason people use well and barricades is to speed up the encounters, we don't all have hours spare to run a raid, we want to speed through them as fast as possible. But bungle doesn't want speed running raids because it affects their players online stats. What we're going to see a few weeks into Shadowkeep is lfgs looking for WoL titans and GG hunters with celestial. Bungle isn't fixing anything, they're just creating a new problem for raid encounters ect in the future. The problem with well isn't actually well itself, it's with the exotic Phoenix Protocol and to be honest, I've never used or been in a group with anyone that's used that exotic, 99/100 it's luna factions equipped.

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      • [quote]***TLDR***---There is a long, detailed segment in this post. If you just want the main ideas, stop reading when you get to the big italic quote. If you've read part 1 of Director's Cut by Luke Smith, then you'll know what I'm talking about. If not, I'll sum it up for you: a little while back, a certain well-known Youtuber/Streamer made a "rant" about some things in Destiny 2. Around half of that rant was directed at Well of Radiance, and he basically said that its broken and needs a nerf to make the game too easy. Some other content creators and players have voiced similar opinions, and think that Well of Radiance is restricting Warlocks to always use it, therefore making other supers irrelevant. This isn't true, but we'll get to that. Anywho, in the writing from Smith, it becomes apparent that they are siding with [the streamer] and feel the Well needs "adjustments". Both Luke Smith and the content creators have pitched this nerf as a sort of "saving grace" for Warlocks, saying that it frees us to use whatever we want. This logic is [i]beyond broken[/i]. Take a moment and think about what they're saying--[i]we're gonna make your character worse, and thats gonna be good for you[/i]. I know I'm not the only one who sees issues here. Quite simply, nothing good comes from a nerf to Well. Sure, some players might have the illusion of choice as to what they use, but they're gonna be stuck using things that aren't ideal. If you wanna run a raid with Chaos Reach in the future, guess what? It'll be the same as running a raid with Chaos Reach now (unless they decide to buff the other Warlock supers). Since thats no different, why not just [i]run the raid with the super you want [b]now?[/b][/i] I also wrote a long response to another post earlier, concerning the fact that players really don't always have to use Well. I'm just gonna copy and paste that here, and that'll be all. [i]"Again, you're argument is just assumptions and generalities that don't hold ground. If we look solely at PvE, what requires the Well? Lets take a look at the Raids: Last Wish: The strategies for Shuro Chi, Morgeth, and Riven all center around a Well, while it is also frequently used against Kalli as a means to speed up the encounter. While it is useful, it is not "necessary", and is no more difficult to do without the Well. That leaves 3/6 encounters using a Well as a primary strategic piece, yet it does have to be noted that it improves the chances of a one phase. Its also important to note that only Shuro Chi usually calls for two Wells, while the rest of the encounters typically use one and then fill in the gaps with rally Barricades and rifts. So, in this raid, 3 encounters require a Well for the fastest completion, with an option for a 4th. Scourge of the Past: Heavily utilizes Well in Boss Phase 2 against Insurrection Prime (in fact, this is the most Well-heavy encounter in Year 2). Ideally you'd have 3 Wells, although most runs do it with 1-2 Wells and Rally Barricades due to a lack of Warlocks. No other encounters in Scourge of the Past "require" Well of Radiance. Crown of Sorrow: Like Scourge, Well is heavily used during the damage phase of the final boss. The need is less intense though--some teams will use 2 Wells, but often times you use one Well, and then luna-rifts and Rally Barricades when the Well expires. Sometimes Well is used on the first boss phase, but is far from a requirement due to the short bursts of damage and the mobility of the boss. It is more of a preference thing, and most times you see teams rely more on Rally Barricades and Luna Rifts, leaving the Warlock to use Nova Bomb in combination with a tractor cannon. So, if we count all raid encounters in Year 2, and get rid of the non-combat sections (the Sparrow section in Scourge of the Past, and the jumping puzzle in Crown of Sorrows), it leaves us with 12 combat based encounters total: Last Wish has 6 (Kalli, Shuro Chi, Morgeth, Vault, Riven, Queenswalk), Scourge of the Past has 3 (Rooftops, and Boss Phase 1 and 2), and Crown of Sorrow has 3 (Vessels, Deceptions, and Gahlran). Of these 12 encounter, only 5 use Well as a "necessary" part of their strategy, although you could factor in Kalli as well and call it 6. So lets say 6/12 encounters use the Well, which is half of year two raid encounters. Now, lets compare this to something else--say, the Hunter's Golden Gun with Celestial Nighthawk. This is used on all boss damage phases, no exceptions, so that checks off Riven, Insurrection Prime, and Gahlran--3 encounters. It is also the most used Hunter super throughout the rest of CoS, as it is the best way to quickly take down Ogres, so you can add Vessels and Deceptions into that pool. Moving along, Celestial is almost always used during both Kalli and Morgeth in Last Wish, as no other supers are really needed. Against Kalli, it is frequent to see a Tether to handle thrall during DPS phase, but there is almost always only one player running this, and the rest run Celestial. That totals to 6 or 7 out of 12 year 2 encounters pushing Hunters to use Celestial--which is greater than or equal to the number of encounters that "require" Well. So why am I going into all of this? Well for one, I looked at your profile on Raid Report. I didn't do it to judge you or anything--I think everyone can play or not play whatever they want. However, I wanted to see what your experience was like as a baseline for the discussion, and sure enough I saw that you haven't raided in 78 weeks, and haven't touched a year 2 raid. Again, I'm not saying this to be offensive and I how you don't take it that way, I mean no disrespect. It is very relevant to the discussion though--raids are supposed to be the pinnacle of endgame PvE, and what your talking about is a nerf that almost solely affects PvE. If you don't raid, then the only modes that really "require" a Well are Reckoning and Heroic Menagerie, so that's barely scratching the surface of endgame PvE. Forges, Blind Well, Gambit, and Strikes don't require a Well at all--you'll occasionally see one here or there (with Forges at the highest rate, Strikes at the lowest), but it is not "necessary" by any definition of the word. I asked you to provide factual evidence to support a nerf of Well, saying how it hurts the game/players and how the nerf would make things better. Your response is still just hypothetical talk, saying that "content will be designed around Well". I understand the remarks about Sunsinger and Bubble in D1, but that doesn't automatically apply here. You don't nerf stuff proactively--thats how you ruin stuff unnecessarily. Instead, you nerf it reactively--when there is actual evidence of something hurting the game, you tone it down. [b]That[/b] is why OEM and Striker need adjustments--they have been hurting players for ages (almost a year in the case of OEM). You say we demand nerfs for any outlier in Destiny--again, this is a false statement. Literally nobody asked for Whisper to be nerfed, and nobody wanted to see adjustments to Orpheus Rig, Phoenix Protocol, or Skull of Dire Ahamkara (unless they reaaaalllly hated Warlocks, and I do think Skull could've been toned down a tad but not this much). The only nerfs hat 99.9999% of people ever want are PvP nerfs, because that when things give players an unfair advantage over other players--in other words, "hurting" the players, and therefore the game. Well doesn't hurt anybody, and literally nobody benefits from it being nerfed. Therefore, nerfing the Well [b]will[/b] hurt the players, and consequently the game."[/i][/quote] Lemme get this straight. What you're saying is.......... Nerf Sparrow top speed. Cool. Got it.

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      • TRLD: So don’t take away your crutch..... Got it.

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      • Edited by Madman Asunder: 8/15/2019 4:00:58 AM
        "It'll be the same as running a raid with Chaos Reach now (unless they decide to buff the other Warlock supers). Since thats no different, why not just run the raid with the super you want now?" Your logic is flawed. You are ignoring the entire problem with an illogical side step. Sure, I COULD do what you say and run an underpowered option now... and MANY people even do that for fun. the problem is that when I am challenged and I can't do whatever I want because "fun" there is a "right" option. There is an unequivocally "best" option. And that is well... and everyone knows it... even you. It's all relative. Everything else can be buffed... or it can be nerfed... it can't stay the same forever. And if everything is brought to it's level the enemies may as well not even show up. "nobody benefits from it being nerfed" people that want a game that has an evolving most effective strategy and constantly switches what the "best' option is as well as try to make the effective choices a wide and diverse set DO benefit. If they kept slowly ratcheting difficulty until even the best team couldn't overcome it... the last thing they would have been able to beat... they 100% would have done so with a well of radiance... That is the problem.

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        • In your copy and paste you said oem and striker needed to be nerfed. I get oem but what was wrong with striker and:or which tree?

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          • The fact that one of nine subclass trees is getting a nerf and you refer to it as the entire character class tells me everything I need to know

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            • Nice. Just a suggestion for you that someone once gave me - you can break up long posts using the spoiler tag. It makes it easier to read 🙂.

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            • *Casually drinks tea in D1 Titan Bubble* First time?

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            • Your entire point goes out the window when you actually read what is written. Luke points to datto's video as an explanation. Not as a reasoning on their decision making. Luke very clearly explains why it's being changed. You just chose to ignore it because blaming someone else is easier for you to do. Why is no one blaming slayerage for his talks about the nerfs to things like spindle? Because according to your critera merely siting someone in the post that talks about nerfs is culpable.

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            • I would just like to point out that while celestial is nice, it is far better to have at least 1 tether in every encounter of crown as it allows quick ad clearing and relative safety even from ads that you cannot currently damage.

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              • Go lfg a team as the only warlock and watch as they boot you from the team for not running well. Because that’s happened to me. A few times. There’s also been times where I’ve had to switch to my warlock from my hunter because our team didn’t have a well and everyone was about to give up. Well sucks. I hate having to use it in every gosh dang raid and not being able to use other supers. None of this, “No your just choosing not to switch” Bull. Teams need warlocks to run well. All of the time. There’s no way around it. Even if we have titans and reload barriers. They still need well in most raid encounters or else you get dramatically decreased damage and are likely to die by other ads. And Bungie didn’t just decide to nerf well because Datto and few others said so. This has most likely been discussed for months and months. I would guess since reckoning. Think Phoenix protocol. They knew that it was breaking encounters and well in general as it meant everyone was immortal for 30 seconds and dramatically increased DPS. This is a raid decision. Make no bones about it. If there was stats for raids and what subclasses were used then you bet that the #1 super would be well. It becomes tedious using the same strat with every boss that comes our way. Put down well, unload heavy, switch to shotgun/special weapon, unload, and then damage phase ends. Think more like D1. That felt epic doing damage and unloading and actually having to worry about other things instead of mindlessly tossing grenades into the bosses face and tanking everything. Well would have broken WarPriest, would have broken golgoroth, atheon, the abyss, sisters, the gatekeeper, and voksis (2nd phase).

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              • Still waiting for those “viable” options since Orpheus rig, skull and Phoenix protocol got nerfed. I think it’s pretty clear that we’re not getting anymore. What could they really change for well? Less time? There’s still super mods, raid specific mods and then throw in s Titan to continue the work. Not to mention bad juju and masterworks will still make orbs. Maybe next time, thundercrash will be the most meta boss killer XD

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                • Dear warlocks sorry for your upcoming nerf signed hunter that had nerfs hitting them

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                • So nerf fusion rifles?

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                  • This was longer than it should've been.

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                  • Warlocks will get thier nerf. Bungie introduced a support class, but now doesn't want the support class to support thier team. We will be reduced to mediocre ad clear and mediocre boss damage. Warlocks will replace what titans have been in pve, and titans will move to the top pve dogs. (Warlock main btw).

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                  • I remember bungie talking awhile ago about taking away weapons of light due to having to create/balance encounters around that mechanic; on one hand, being too easy if you have it, but on the other, being impossible if you don’t. Then they added well and pretty much did the same thing. Now weapons is coming back, so I guess it all didn’t matter. All in all, I don’t think it’s due to any specific person or influence, other than the mechanics themselves requiring it.

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                  • Funny how Luke Smith can even say something like this while he probably doesnt even play the game as much as a casual player. And i cant even get to the point of how people inside bungie agree with this. What about test the game for yourselfs instead listening to content creators? Or even easier, ask us... we casual players, hardcore players the ones that play for fun, the ones that should really matter on decisions like this one.

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                  • [quote]***TLDR***---There is a long, detailed segment in this post. If you just want the main ideas, stop reading when you get to the big italic quote. If you've read part 1 of Director's Cut by Luke Smith, then you'll know what I'm talking about. If not, I'll sum it up for you: a little while back, a certain well-known Youtuber/Streamer made a "rant" about some things in Destiny 2. Around half of that rant was directed at Well of Radiance, and he basically said that its broken and needs a nerf to make the game too easy. Some other content creators and players have voiced similar opinions, and think that Well of Radiance is restricting Warlocks to always use it, therefore making other supers irrelevant. This isn't true, but we'll get to that. Anywho, in the writing from Smith, it becomes apparent that they are siding with [the streamer] and feel the Well needs "adjustments". Both Luke Smith and the content creators have pitched this nerf as a sort of "saving grace" for Warlocks, saying that it frees us to use whatever we want. This logic is [i]beyond broken[/i]. Take a moment and think about what they're saying--[i]we're gonna make your character worse, and thats gonna be good for you[/i]. I know I'm not the only one who sees issues here. Quite simply, nothing good comes from a nerf to Well. Sure, some players might have the illusion of choice as to what they use, but they're gonna be stuck using things that aren't ideal. If you wanna run a raid with Chaos Reach in the future, guess what? It'll be the same as running a raid with Chaos Reach now (unless they decide to buff the other Warlock supers). Since thats no different, why not just [i]run the raid with the super you want [b]now?[/b][/i] I also wrote a long response to another post earlier, concerning the fact that players really don't always have to use Well. I'm just gonna copy and paste that here, and that'll be all. [i]"Again, you're argument is just assumptions and generalities that don't hold ground. If we look solely at PvE, what requires the Well? Lets take a look at the Raids: Last Wish: The strategies for Shuro Chi, Morgeth, and Riven all center around a Well, while it is also frequently used against Kalli as a means to speed up the encounter. While it is useful, it is not "necessary", and is no more difficult to do without the Well. That leaves 3/6 encounters using a Well as a primary strategic piece, yet it does have to be noted that it improves the chances of a one phase. Its also important to note that only Shuro Chi usually calls for two Wells, while the rest of the encounters typically use one and then fill in the gaps with rally Barricades and rifts. So, in this raid, 3 encounters require a Well for the fastest completion, with an option for a 4th. Scourge of the Past: Heavily utilizes Well in Boss Phase 2 against Insurrection Prime (in fact, this is the most Well-heavy encounter in Year 2). Ideally you'd have 3 Wells, although most runs do it with 1-2 Wells and Rally Barricades due to a lack of Warlocks. No other encounters in Scourge of the Past "require" Well of Radiance. Crown of Sorrow: Like Scourge, Well is heavily used during the damage phase of the final boss. The need is less intense though--some teams will use 2 Wells, but often times you use one Well, and then luna-rifts and Rally Barricades when the Well expires. Sometimes Well is used on the first boss phase, but is far from a requirement due to the short bursts of damage and the mobility of the boss. It is more of a preference thing, and most times you see teams rely more on Rally Barricades and Luna Rifts, leaving the Warlock to use Nova Bomb in combination with a tractor cannon. So, if we count all raid encounters in Year 2, and get rid of the non-combat sections (the Sparrow section in Scourge of the Past, and the jumping puzzle in Crown of Sorrows), it leaves us with 12 combat based encounters total: Last Wish has 6 (Kalli, Shuro Chi, Morgeth, Vault, Riven, Queenswalk), Scourge of the Past has 3 (Rooftops, and Boss Phase 1 and 2), and Crown of Sorrow has 3 (Vessels, Deceptions, and Gahlran). Of these 12 encounter, only 5 use Well as a "necessary" part of their strategy, although you could factor in Kalli as well and call it 6. So lets say 6/12 encounters use the Well, which is half of year two raid encounters. Now, lets compare this to something else--say, the Hunter's Golden Gun with Celestial Nighthawk. This is used on all boss damage phases, no exceptions, so that checks off Riven, Insurrection Prime, and Gahlran--3 encounters. It is also the most used Hunter super throughout the rest of CoS, as it is the best way to quickly take down Ogres, so you can add Vessels and Deceptions into that pool. Moving along, Celestial is almost always used during both Kalli and Morgeth in Last Wish, as no other supers are really needed. Against Kalli, it is frequent to see a Tether to handle thrall during DPS phase, but there is almost always only one player running this, and the rest run Celestial. That totals to 6 or 7 out of 12 year 2 encounters pushing Hunters to use Celestial--which is greater than or equal to the number of encounters that "require" Well. So why am I going into all of this? Well for one, I looked at your profile on Raid Report. I didn't do it to judge you or anything--I think everyone can play or not play whatever they want. However, I wanted to see what your experience was like as a baseline for the discussion, and sure enough I saw that you haven't raided in 78 weeks, and haven't touched a year 2 raid. Again, I'm not saying this to be offensive and I how you don't take it that way, I mean no disrespect. It is very relevant to the discussion though--raids are supposed to be the pinnacle of endgame PvE, and what your talking about is a nerf that almost solely affects PvE. If you don't raid, then the only modes that really "require" a Well are Reckoning and Heroic Menagerie, so that's barely scratching the surface of endgame PvE. Forges, Blind Well, Gambit, and Strikes don't require a Well at all--you'll occasionally see one here or there (with Forges at the highest rate, Strikes at the lowest), but it is not "necessary" by any definition of the word. I asked you to provide factual evidence to support a nerf of Well, saying how it hurts the game/players and how the nerf would make things better. Your response is still just hypothetical talk, saying that "content will be designed around Well". I understand the remarks about Sunsinger and Bubble in D1, but that doesn't automatically apply here. You don't nerf stuff proactively--thats how you ruin stuff unnecessarily. Instead, you nerf it reactively--when there is actual evidence of something hurting the game, you tone it down. [b]That[/b] is why OEM and Striker need adjustments--they have been hurting players for ages (almost a year in the case of OEM). You say we demand nerfs for any outlier in Destiny--again, this is a false statement. Literally nobody asked for Whisper to be nerfed, and nobody wanted to see adjustments to Orpheus Rig, Phoenix Protocol, or Skull of Dire Ahamkara (unless they reaaaalllly hated Warlocks, and I do think Skull could've been toned down a tad but not this much). The only nerfs hat 99.9999% of people ever want are PvP nerfs, because that when things give players an unfair advantage over other players--in other words, "hurting" the players, and therefore the game. Well doesn't hurt anybody, and literally nobody benefits from it being nerfed. Therefore, nerfing the Well [b]will[/b] hurt the players, and consequently the game."[/i][/quote] Honestly after 5 years of nerfs I’m expecting a couple every month or so the way of the bungle

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                  • Edited by Tazzenkaff: 8/14/2019 1:37:25 AM
                    So warlocks will suck in pve as well as pvp. Wonderful.

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                    • [quote]Well doesn't hurt anybody, and literally nobody benefits from it being nerfed. Therefore, nerfing the Well [b]will[/b] hurt the players, and consequently the game."[/i][/quote] This

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