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Edited by Ev1LDragonFly: 7/29/2019 9:09:52 PM
26

Pinnacle Weapons were a mistake

Title. Controversial opinions ahead. I was on board with Redrix's Claymore/Broadsword (as an item, not the grind) initially as PvP had never offered a reward that was built to be used in PvP. Trials had good items, throughout its lifespan, but not all of them were PvP-focussed. The TTK set of weapons that had Last Stand as the Adept bonus, for example, is something that has benefit for PvP but Last Stand was never the best perk. Similarly, the RoI set offered Snapshot, which is not bad by any means but nothing unique or game-changing. Desperado, as a unique perk, was a new thing for PvP weapons - even the snippet of lore behind the gun is something nice, about Shaxx introducing rankings to Crucible. Beyond that, the weapon isn't broken. It's in a difficult-to-use archetype that rewards the same tenets the quest is supposed to teach you in a meaningful way. It has a place in PvE, but will never outdo Rampage or Kill Clip. On the flipside, it easily outdoes both in PvP by way of a significantly longer duration, the lack of any concern for ammo and the ability to refresh indefinitely. It shines where it's supposed to. A good idea that I think would have been praised more, had S3 Comp not been so awful - for which, the Broadsword quest was an apology, not Bungie saying that every Pinnacle weapon will be available without Comp in due time, like many players seem to think is the case. Luna's Howl was not a good Pinnacle Weapon. Don't get me wrong, it was a great gun and still is on console. The problem is that it was always too good. It retains the same PvE viability as Claymore but ramped up the PvP effectiveness. Simply put, it made every other Hand Cannon obsolete, barring Not Forgotten - all comments I make about LH can simply be applied to that too, apart from things relating to how many players own it. I got my LH in early October and had stopped using it by November apart from sweaty comp matches. It sits in the Vault with somewhere around 1400 Crucible kills on it. It was boring. Mindlessly easy to use and blew every other weapon out of the water, it was indefensibly good. If you have it available, you had no reason to use any other Hand Cannon because it had no drawbacks that are not overly compensated for by its time-to-kill. I personally think that Bungie underestimated how many players would actually obtain the gun; you couldn't go into any match without 3 or 4 people on the other team using it, thereby forcing you to use something much more tryhard-y than your current loadout in order to remain competitive. For a weapon of that calibre, it was far too prevalent. Claymore is good, but you never have to switch guns because someone else is using it, nor does it make every other Pulse Rifle look like garbage. Each season thereafter brought three new Pinnacle Weapons, with the introduction of ones for both Vanguard and Gambit. I feel like the essence of my problem with Pinnacle weapons has been well-exemplified with the contrast between the first two, so my words on all that came afterwards will be brief, with the exception of The Recluse, for obvious reasons. Breakneck is a funny one. A very good weapon that has shortcomings due to being an Auto Rifle but is completely overshadowed by The Recluse. Underrated for sure but it would be difficult to place if Recluse was neutered. Loaded Question leans more towards Luna's Howl than Claymore on the spectrum. I don't think it's broken by any means, but why would you use any other Fusion Rifle over it? You could make a case for Telesto or Jotunn, but Merciless and every other legendary falls well short of it. Mountaintop is a horrible grind but absolutely worth it. Great in PvP, due a nerf in PvE but more because of Grenade Launchers being strong right now that the weapon itself being too strong. That said, it also lands in the same area as Loaded Question. Why use any other breech-load GL over it if you have the choice? The simple answer is that you wouldn't because nothing can match the benefit it provides. Oxygen is another underrated weapon in the Pinnacle hierarchy and shows, to me, that the community disrespects anything that doesn't have pure damage perks.Could it do with a buff? Yes. Do Scout Rifles in general need a buff? Yes. Is the gun so bad you shouldn't use it ever? Absolutely not. Meganeura takes chunks out of majors and is plain fun to use. 21% Delirium excels in Gambit Prime, as it should do. The Killing Tally stacking up to 3x works well with the fact that the Primeval Envoys tend to spawn with 3 mobs near them each time. Outside of Gambit, it's still an excellent Machine Gun. It may be more situational than Thunderlord or a well-rolled Hammerhead but that's not a problem, nor should it be. Revoker is very similar. Snapshot is a waste of a perk for PvE and Reversal of Fortune is also pretty meaningless. In PvP, though, it doesn't get nearly as much credit as it should. It does wonders in combating the poor special ammo economy that Snipers have. Hush on console is worthless. Enough said. Wendigo might be the sweet-spot for a Pinnacle weapon. Absolutely worthless in PvP but, under the right conditions, challenges an Exotic at its role i.e. Prospector for DPS. If Pinnacle weapons are to continue, then making them like a junior version of an existing Exotic that comes with its own niche and merits is the way to go. You might not like it, but this community doesn't seem to like balance anyway. On that note, that's what The Recluse completely fails to do. Master of Arms lets you output a ridiculous amount of damage with no ramp up and it has the ability to refresh itself. Add that to Feeding Frenzy and a solid set of stats, you're left with a gun that is flawless, within reasonable bounds. You can go on long sprees with it in PvP and there is no better primary weapon for PvE than it. The damage increase roughly equates to Rampage x3 and you don't even have to use the weapon to get it. If the perk only activated from kills with other weapons, if it didn't refresh on every kill, if there was any kind of drawback to it, it would be fine. But there isn't. It does everything and frankly, it's the most boring gun in the game. I say that after 8k PvE kills and I know there are people out there with significantly more. What's Tarrabah even for? I'm not going to use my Exotic slot for a buggy boss-DPS SMG that can't hold a candle to any decent heavy. A lot of words in a pretty ranty format, so my conclusion is this. The current array of Pinnacle Weapons fall into 3 categories. So broken that you shouldn't consider using anything else, completely outdone at their own gimmick or above-average weapons that have a niche. They should all be in that third category, the other two - for one reason or another - should not exist. They should not be making Exotics not worth using, nor should anything else render them unusable. I like Oxygen, but I also like my Kill Clip/Rampage Transfiguration and respect what each is good at. I like Mountaintop and accept that something like Orewing's Maul has no place in the game right now. I like Bows and know that Hush offers very little meaningful reward for the effort required to use it well. Please come to terms with the fact that pre-nerf LH/NF and current Recluse should never have existed in those states. Realise that 21% Delirium and Revoker are much better examples of a reward that fits how you obtain it in the first place.

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  • Revoker reversal of fortune is actually useful in pvp. 50% of sniping is taking shots you don’t think you’ll hit, or are crazy quick drag scopes that you probably won’t hit. The perk makes it so you can take these shots with little to no risk to yourself (health wise) and no punishment like losing ammo. It’s also a very well rounded sniper stats wise. Without going for those types of shots you aren’t using the sniper to it’s full potential and are probably just hard scoping around corners. In short it makes it easier to take your sniping game to the next level (hitting more crazy shots).

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    • Revoker reversal of fortune is actually useful in pvp. 50% of sniping is taking shots you don’t think you’ll hit, or are crazy quick drag scopes that you probably won’t hit. The perk makes it so you can take these shots with little to no risk to yourself (health wise) and no punishment like losing ammo. It’s also a very well rounded sniper stats wise. Without going for those types of shots you aren’t using the sniper to it’s full potential and are probably just hard scoping around corners. In short it makes it easier to take your sniping game to the next level (hitting more crazy shots).

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    • I agree the pinnacle weapons were a mistake but only because they were legendaries instead of exotics. Compared to a bulk of the exotics in the game they have similar abilities. What breaks the weapons is the fact that they are Legendaries allowing you to pair them with exotics or other pinnacle weapons. The only restriction is whether to run a specific exotic in its place but then the other two slots could still be other pinnacle weapons. I’d honestly be fine with making them automatic exotics in Shadowkeep as they will still likely be the best weapons in the game and to make new general legendaries competitive the power creep would be a disaster.

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      • Im not going to read that essay of yours but heres a simple thing: All pinnacle weapons have flaws, exploit them.

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        • So after taking a minute to really look at your mini-essay, here's my standpoint. It's my own opinion, so bear with me and take it with a grain of salt: The issue with Pinnacle weapons is there isn't enough perks - or, you know, actual -blam!-ing weapons - to balance them against without feeling like a waste of time or the weapons being too powerful. Plus, when a majority of perks are useless anyway, outliers like Mountaintop become too viable in activities outside of what you had to do to obtain them. To me, the easiest way to reduce the effects of Pinnacle weapons on the community experience is two-fold. First, designing more armor and weapons, and do so in a similar fashion to how Notorious Gambit Armor was. As in, make the benefit of that gear noticeable only in, or mostly in, the activity you had to do to get that piece of gear. All the while, the gear should represent all archetypes in a viable way. Second, designing and implementing more perks that, just like the gear, only provides a tangible benefit in a single type of activity. This way the thematic perk approach of pinnacle weapons doesn't inadvertently a) create something no other perk can compete with, and b) create spillage of a pinnacle weapon accidentally being too good in other activities.

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        • sHaMeLeSs SeLf-BuMp

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          • I was a mistake...

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            • Edited by Organic Machine: 7/30/2019 7:49:27 PM
              My issue is that some of them outperform exotics of the same archetype. And some of them are “easier” to obtain than exotics. More of a time investment than anything. Exotics rely on RNG and may never come for some while others get them right out of the gate. Pinnacles are just a grind, but a known one with no RNG. It’s not particularly balanced, like much of the game. I’m just not sure if that’s because exotics have been made to be too weak or the pinnacles have been made to be too strong. In some cases an exotic isn’t necessarily powerful as much as it is “unique”, but that makes it feel underwhelming. The constant ups and downs of nerfs and buffs is beyond old at this point. It makes me think that there is no middle ground. It doesn’t exist.

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            • Pinnacle weapons are good for a reason. If you actually spent the time to get them instead of writing an essay about it than you would understand

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              • Edited by Hawx: 7/30/2019 4:34:52 PM
                I mostly agree except for the Mountaintop part. That weapon is a -blam!- to get and there are a shit ton of people who still don't have it. It is a very harsh quest that rewards a very good gun that does roughly the same amount of dmg as a heavy grenade launcher. I think that the reward is balanced enough relative to the quest. Recluse outshines every other SMG, very true but that isn't very difficult as SMGs generally aren't that strong except for Recluse. The fact that it is so highly regarded is the MoA perk. Nearly unlimited activation time in PvE and rather easily gotten in PvP unless you are a potato. Hush is trash. Revoker is a PvP pinnacle that does well in PvP as it should. Oxygen is good but there are enough Scouts that are better/just as good without having to grind for them. Loaded Question is really good in PvE while in PvP it is easily matched or outmatched by Erentil or say Tempered Dynamo. Hell even Epicurean with the right perks. 21% is good. A discount Thunderlord. I'll take that. Wendigo...really depends if it can surpass weapons such as prospector or literally any 150rpm nade launcher with spike nades and boss spec or Anarchy as you can do background dmg with anarchy while also dealing active dmg. If you have the 6× buff plus some exterior buffs then sure maybe. LH/NF were broken as -blam!- and have been reigned in a lot now. Redrix is good but Blast Furnace is plain and simply better. Just like Bygones. Sadly. Redrix is a slog. Not difficult but a slog so it is kinda sad that that slog just got nullified by Blast Furnace and Bygones and now Bad JuJu. I'd add Outbreak but that gun was not as easy to get as say buying a god roll from Drifter. I -blam!-ing love Breakneck. A grind for sure but the gun is fun but hindered by Bungo's lack of balancing knowledge Good post OP. Not great but a welcome change amidst the toxic and whiny posts one usually sees

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              • Pinnacle weapons are fine. They just had to figure out the right way to deliver them. They were a new thing, and i think with the revoker quest they finally figured out what would work well. Rome wasn't built in a day, or whatever they say.

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              • You where a mistake

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                • Not balancing them with other options found in the game, was the problem.

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                  • Isn't the idea of "pinnacle" to be the best?

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                    • Edited by wes0103: 7/30/2019 1:41:19 PM
                      I have all the pinnacle weapons except for Mountaintop, simply because I hate grenade launchers. Got everything done except for 20% of the multikills, and then just lost interest. I agree with pretty much everything you said. Pinnacle weapons should be powerful, yes, but they by no means should make every other option, especially exotics, obsolete.

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                      • I grinded my bum off to get the Claymore in Season 3, and to be honest I never used it much. Back in the Antiope / Graviton meta, Redrix never had a chance as it's just too slow at getting its first kill. Then LH... I tanked my KD so hard getting Solar kills, it's not even funny. You only need to look at those two to see how different the time investment / reward gained is. Redrix is hardly worth the grind at all, whereas pre-nerf Luna destroyed everything, everywhere. People defend it, but... why?

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                        • How dare you insult Hush

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                          • For me, the issue is I feel like the pinnacle weapon quests hurt enjoyment of the game. Most of them require you to play a particular way for an extremely long time. (to the point where it becomes an un-enjoyable grind). This in turn also negatively effects the players around you. (Players in crucible using triple grenade launcher, players farming blind well instead of completing the strike they are in etc) Most of the pinnacle weapons are pretty cool or fun to use, so I really appreciate Bungie designing their unique perks. But I don't think the way we acquire them is good for the game.

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                            • Edited by Poopschtick: 7/30/2019 12:10:49 PM
                              My god some people have so much free time it's insane. All I see is paragraphs and paragraphs full of.....

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                              • The mistake was making pvp pinnacle weapons the best PVE options. That was just straight stupid.

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                                • No, take a downvote

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                                  • 0
                                    get gud go play raid leave alone pvp for pvp players

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                                    • I agree. I think pre-buff loaded question was a good example of a pinnacle weapon. Could it boss DPS? No. Was it able to chunk majors? Not really. But what it was designed to do it did well: explode groups of ads. I made it to 12k kills before it was buffed before I put it down for Recluse. I also wish Luna's was still good in pve, it wasn't broken, just niche. Now I only use it for the aesthetic

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                                    • Im so exited for the next expansion, the next meta is mountain top and recluse! Oh boy! I cant wait to uninstall destiny when it happens! Maybe when the 99% of the community is gone then they might take balance more serious. They cant even say they do right now with bottom tree striker being a perfect example of how they don’t bother with balance in this game.

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                                      • Redrix: Awesome weapon with a learning curve, hard to handle, shorter range than it should have, definitely not broken. Quest a bit much, but understandably so. Worth the grind in my opinion. Lunas/Not Forgotten: Dont have, cant comment. Recluse: See above. Mountaintop: See above. Revoker: I'll let you know in 89 more sniper kills. Loaded Question: Worth the grind. Not broken. Some people don't like, not sure why. Oxygen: Underpowered, underwhelming, still like using it though. Vaulted for now to focus on snipers. Wendigo: Totally worth the grind. Melts bosses, no complaints. Breakneck: Great auto rifle, not my style, but I gave it a fair shot with my Titan running Actium War Rig. Not the guns fault I'm not into ARs. 21% Delirium: Used exclusively until I got the Wendigo, would recommend, would use again. Shoots for freakin ever. Hush: Don't have, dont know if I'll get. Dont like bows, dont really care for the Medals part of the quest. Can't comment.

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                                      • Pinnacle weapons are mostly fine. Since, while we have this arbitrary restriction on Exotic usage, they allow us to have "Pseudo-Exotics" equipped that can be more interesting than just loading up on [Insert Legendary with Outlaw + Kill Clip/Rampage] Though, it does highlight: 1) That the Exotic Weapon restriction is not particularly meaningful. Given that "Stronger than your Average Legendary (Also, many Exotics)" Pinnacle Weapons are unrestricted. 2) That there really aren't many actually interesting perks to get on weapons. Like, 99% of the time for PvE I'm looking for something that helps with reload and then whatever gives better damage, which is usually stuff like Outlaw/Rapid Fire/Triple Tap and Rampage/Kill Clip/Trench Barrel/Swashbuckler. Especially when you consider what some of the Pinnacle unique traits end up being... Stuff like Meganura being just extra damage on Firefly or how Reversal of Fortune is just a guaranteed Mulligan proc... Like, why couldn't we have gotten Onslaught as a random perk that stacks fire rate on kill? Or Resevoir Burst? Or Archer's Gambit? 3) Pinnacle Quests are pretty dumb. Like, everyone knows how stupid the Mountaintop grind is. How annoying the Recluse grind is (Especially if only getting the gun for PvE purposes). But even things like Wendigo are pretty bass ackwards. Like, getting a ton of kills and multi-kills? But Heavy weapons are for taking out bosses, not clearing trash? Meaning your options are: Play sub-optimally and waste all your heavy ammo clearing trash. Use the Exotic Fighting Lion which is a Primary GL. Form a Blind Well farm team (Ideally using Fighting Lion for better ammo managment...) and cheese the crap out of it. Like, some Pinnacle quests aren't too bad. Stuff like Hush, Breakneck, Oxygen and Loaded Question are fairly non-invasive and don't require you to bend over backwards in order to complete them, at worst its "Use X weapon type to grind towards X weapon reward" with most of them being Primaries so will be used often (While LQ has a fairly tame 500 Fusion kills requirement, which for a Special weapon that will generally be used to take out majors, that's fine) But others are just pretty dumb. Mostly the Grenade Launcher ones...

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