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originally posted in: Make Thorn Great Again
5/23/2019 9:49:00 PM
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Thorn is my favorite gun and I constantly outgun other strong weapons. I use this gun for a reason, just saying.
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  • I'm very happy you have found success with thorn, but the fact of the matter is thorn is worse that NF in basically every aspect. NF is an 180 and is able to 3 tap, requiring 2 headshots and 1 body and in some cases 2 tap (requiring 1 head and 1 body), since it's an 180 it has nearly perfect in air accuracy with little to no recoil and NO bloom. NF is also legendary. Thorn on the other hand is a 150, needs 3 headshots without the perk, and since it's a 150 has bloom, doesn't have perfect mid air accuracy and compared to NF has a lot more recoil. While the perk definitely makes it a very strong weapon, against a good team you'll never really use it. Thorn is also an exotic. If someone apes you chances are you killed them with your shotgun and not thorn, and if you do kill someone with the thorn, you have to go their body which more often than not is not possible or it gets you killed. Now my thoughts are based on a high competitive rank, 5k+ where I've never ever seen someone use thorn, I'm pretty sure in QP it could be a decent weapon, but as it stands, it simply gets beat by NF in every scenario. And they're also coming from console perspective. With the nerfs coming to NF, it'll still be the meta weapon. The only nerf is it's going from 180-150 and it won't 2 tap. But since it will still function like a 180 it will have perfect mid air accuracy and no bloom which are the biggest HC issues in console.

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  • Couldn't have said this better. Thank you for taking the time to type it out. May the Traveler bless you with mo Light

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  • I saw this. If you have a good person with NF and a good person with Thorn, sure, NF would most likely win. But the ttk is going to be the same in both now. NF will definitely be very consistent, but if you think Thorn won't be able to compete....buddy. Ace competes in the right hands now, and will compete even more when the nerf happens. I think the same for Thorn.

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  • Ace is superior to Thorn.

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  • Edited by HiddenCarry-: 5/24/2019 1:43:20 PM
    It's not that NF will most likely beat thorn, it's that if everyone hits their shots NF will always win. NF has little to no recoil, it's a 180 and no bloom. Thorn shoots slower has bloom and has more recoil. If you're referring to PC then yes, ace definitely competes and dare I say is better than NF due to it's incredible range and its consistency. But on console it's just not the truth, ace without the perk active is incredibly inconsistent in PvP. Look at it objectively now: Ace is a 140, so it suffers from bloom and all that》it requires 3 HS. NF is an 180, no issues except it has less range that ace and it requires 2 HS and 1 body. I've maybe seen an ace of spades in high comp every match out of 100 IN CONSOLE. Now let's look at the nerfs: Ace loses it's perk if you change weapons, changing weapons happens frequently in high level play because people push a lot. And it also won't be able to 2 tap anymore using the titan exotic helmet. NF is going to 150 but still behaving like a 180, it'll just shoot slower, therefore it won't have bloom nor all the other issues. So: Ace remains mostly unchanged. NF will still shoot faster and will keep its benefits (it's also a legendary) and it'll only need 2 HS and 1 body. The issues in console don't rely on ttk or anything like that, they are due to bloom which makes shots not register. That's why you don't see nobody using dire promises or ace in high level play IN CONSOLE. Maybe I get proved wrong, hopefully tbh because I'm tired of being forced to use 1 weapon but the meta will not shift in console IMO.

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  • Edited by Dredgen Luna: 5/24/2019 2:25:08 PM
    Yeah let's get away from the 180 aspect now, because that's going away. That gave it a huge advantage for 2 reasons: way faster ttk and the ability to reset and respond faster through flinch and strafing. I'd be killed by a NF faster than I could react. That won't happen anymore. You gotta think of it this way too. 150s are tough to use for a few reasons: Bloom, recoil (arguably fixable depending on your spare rations roll), and flinch. In this case, NF will definitely still be good, but also will be more affected by the flinch and strafe factors. You won't be able to insta delete someone else good with a 150. Meanwhile thorn will have the same firing speed and the potential to 2 tap (judging by your skill and how we're having this convo, I think this isn't a problem for you at all). I can agree though that NF has the zero recoil factor. That gives it an edge. You seem like a cool pvp player. I'd give it another try when the next season hits, and even work to master it. I have people I play with that are terrifying with Thorn, but they refuse to use their NF. I play on PS4, and I have to say one of my greatest matches in comp ever was with Ace vs a NF.

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  • The thing is, unless I didn't understand the nerfs correctly. NF will still function like an 180, meaning it will have all of its benefits, so it'll simply just shoot slower (150). This means it won't have bloom which is and will always be the primary issue with HCs in console. Under normal circumstances, thorn will need 3 HS, if bloom wasn't a thing than this would be great, but with bloom being a thing this has the RNG factor. NF will need 2 head and 1 body and without it having bloom means it will be consistent. I truly think even if NF was getting nerfed to 140 it would still beat all the other 150s and 140s simply because it doesn't have the RNG factor. That's the biggest issue, bloom makes every HC that's not a 180 or behaves like a 180 have the RNG factor, and any top player will always take consistency over a potential 2 tap that can be played around and or baited. For example if I know you're using thorn and you were to kill a teammate, I'll know you're going to want to go get the buff for the perk, and that could lead to a potential gunfight in which: A: you go in shotgun range B: you don't go for it C: we have a primary 1v1, in which you need 3 HS, have bloom and more recoil than me. In quickplay all of this doesn't matter as nobody really plays like a team, so I'm strictly referring to comp.

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  • [quote]Yeah let's get away from the 180 aspect now, because that's going away. In this case, NF will definitely still be good, but also will be more affected by the flinch and strafe factors. You won't be able to insta delete someone else good with a 150. Meanwhile thorn will have the same firing speed and the potential to 2 tap (judging by your skill and how we're having this convo, I think this isn't a problem for you at all).[/quote] LUNA/NF While being reduced to a 150rpm are retaining their animation and recoil pattern. They will be percision frame 150s, the only of their kind. Thorn will still be affected and will still be worse than ace, Luna, and Nf in a comp setting.

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  • I'm aware of the precision retention, but that doesn't just make them objectively better if the person wielding them can do worse with thorn. Ace? Oh yeah ace has range. Well...with this nerf thorn actually may be a bit better since you can stow it and retain soul devourer for a little bit. Recoil is worse, but very manageable. And In a skilled hc comp player's hands, this is very manageable. I really wouldn't discount it in this next season.

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  • Why do we have to "manage" everything while 180s just shoot till you die if you aren't playing it like a cover shooter.

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  • There has to be "some" managing. If not, hcs are just too powerful. That's coming from someone who uses hcs....ALOT.

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  • Well the gun should be unruly, but if my cross hair is on them, it should hit them. Period. Last word needs to be managed... But when the gun is aimed proper, the bullets hit, it's not based on rng

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  • Yes. Yes. And yes again

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  • I'm glad you have found success

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    So pretty much it’s you not the gun?

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  • Nope, gun is trash tier, chasing silly orbs to proc a tiny short lived boost to dot? Instead of just working via kills?! lol Bad recoil, stability, bloom (with controller) terrible range, poor target blocking animation, average base stats....

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  • Had a guy drop a 48 bomb with it...and you call it trash tier?

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  • I've had great games with trash weapons too, doesn't make them good, just like Bungie's trash matchmaking....

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  • In comp?

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  • Thorn is hardly trash tier. 🙄

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  • [quote]Thorn is hardly trash tier. 🙄[/quote] You're right, its worse! lol A pve raid pulse comes back and is way better than Thorn in pvp, while Thorn is meant to be a guardian killer pvp top tier weapon with the lore to back it up too! Haha Name another weapon where you must chase quickly expiring orbs to get a few seconds "buff".... My legendary Duke two taps anyone at massive range, with just one stack of rampage, and I don't have to run out in the open for some crappy orb. Even my orchid can two tap when stacked with kill clip and rampage, way better weapon, both simple legendary weapons too... Thorn is a joke weapon, a pale imitation of what it used to be...

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  • Precisely

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    Mickey, the problem is your skill

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  • [quote]Mickey, the problem is your skill[/quote] How would you know? Thorn is garbage, look how good the other weapons are they brought back, even the pve raid pulse is way better than Thorn, that's why it went straight to the top used weapon tracking in pvp, why didn't Thorn? Bury your head in the sand, ignore the truth.... Thorn should at [i]least[/i] proc on kill, have way more range and stability (Best 150 stats, it is exotic, right), and for controller users, no bloom....

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  • As stated, I get kills with Thorn too, but it feels lacking in a comp setting when rushed by dustrock Luna. Rather use my Luna or recluse/mountain top. Arbalest. Ace. Almost any other exotic...

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