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originally posted in: Make Thorn Great Again
5/22/2019 6:23:32 PM
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Bloom along with copious amount of recoil is just straight up raw dogging the console community. Any hand cannon that isn’t a precision is just unusable. What’s the point of a TTK if you can’t full reach it when using a weapon.
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  • In general, the reality of peak potential weapon TTKs across FPS games is that they’re situational and that is taken into account when balancing said TTK. In many cases, weapons are simply not expected to perform at their optimal TTK at all times or in all situations. Recoil, damage falloff ranges, shot dispersion properties (includes what the community loves to refer to as bloom, which seems to be nothing more than an increasing cone of dispersion as shots are fired repeatedly, and isn’t at all weird for an FPS to use and is super common for any automatic weapon, though I don’t hear this term elsewhere), heck even magazine size and magazine reload time if you think it out far enough over successive encounters. So the reason to create weapons that don’t always perform optimally is to create differentiation between different weapons for different situations for which they’re best suited and give different weapons different practical feel. High shot dispersion doesn’t matter up close, creating a secondary ranging characteristic on weapon behavior besides simply damage falloff. Having properties which require the player to use the weapon differently for situationally optimal performance, even if that doesn’t match the most optimal output of the weapon in ideal conditions, is actually room for positive skill gap in the gunplay system. All that long babbling aside, whatever it may be worth, I want to emphasize that handcannons are not the only primary weapon in the game, and this fact should not be forgotten or ignored or overlooked when people are talking about removing handcannon bloom. Simply removing bloom would likely be roughly equivalent to a blanket buff to handcannons, which would not be healthy for the sandbox. Such a change would have to come with other adjustments to the sandbox, likely in the form of nerfs to handcannons (much more aggressive damage falloff ranges would make the most sense) to control power creep and keep TTKs in line.

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  • Hand cannons are not the only primary, but the are the most prevalenly used. Wouldn't you like to see more than Luna's/nf, trust, service, and Ace?

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  • [quote]Hand cannons are not the only primary, but the are the most prevalenly used. Wouldn't you like to see more than Luna's/nf, trust, service, and Ace?[/quote] That’s the problem in a nutshell though; while a handful does overrepresent the class, and that is a problem that needs to be addressed, handcannons being overly dominant is already a legitimate concern. Addressing only part of the problem isn’t a good enough fix. Not only do all handcannons amongst themselves need to be on more even playing field (I’m personally largely agnostic as to whether that’s resolved by zeroing bloom for handcannons, simply doing away with the exceptions that outshine the norms of the weapon class, or meeting in the middle. I would not be surprised if there’s a good middle ground that lets bloom do the theoretical jobs I’ve discribed without annoying users as much as it appears to be and evens the handcannons amongst themselves), but we need to make sure that the sandbox is properly tuned to support all the primaries, and it’s quite clearly not there right now (pulses are an obvious offender, at least with some archetypes, for performing well outside their design space to the detriment of other primaries, notably scouts). Bungie needs to put in a crap ton of work. Tweaking bloom alone won’t be enough to save the state of the sandbox.

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  • Edited by Seiryoku: 5/23/2019 4:49:47 AM
    [quote] I would not be surprised if there’s a good middle ground that lets bloom do the theoretical jobs I’ve discribed... ...we need to make sure that the sandbox is properly tuned to support all the primaries Bungie needs to put in a crap ton of work. Tweaking bloom alone won’t be enough to save the state of the sandbox.[/quote] I agree on all fronts. Bloom should exist to keep HC from feeling the same and breaking the game. Thorn specifically doesn't feel like what I and many others believe the Thorn should feel like. Its not worth the exotic slot with many other more viable competitors. That said, a recoiless 150 is ultimately more dangerous than a 180, especially when a two tap, but the bloom is too random and too severe outside of quick play. I need reliability. It's why grenade launchers had no love till now, and it's why very few main Thorn on console.

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  • Blanket nerfs are dangerous, a minor nudge to make everyones 150 not feel like a total death sentence by the majority 180 rushers seems refreshing and allows greater variety

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  • [quote]Blanket nerfs are dangerous, a minor nudge to make everyones 150 not feel like a total death sentence by the majority 180 rushers seems refreshing and allows greater variety[/quote] If it sounded like I was advocating a class wide-nerf without fine tuning to respect the needs of different archetypes, I apologize. I was speaking in terms of a general direction of adjustments in the absence of bloom without trying to get into the nitty gritty of individual archetype adjustments or specific numbers/degrees. Broad, hand-wavy discussion strikes have a tendency to get vague or imprecise as a result of that, I suppose. The sandbox is really just a big math problem, and I do think it can realistically be significantly well iterated on via theorycraft and calculations, but in general I don’t bother because I’m not going to dig up the data and put in that amount of work to try to do it properly in detail just for Bungie to ignore it like most of the forum feedback ;) That, partly, and that I haven’t played in ages and never was much of a hand cannon user, are two major reasons I’ve come at the conversation from this angle. The other main reason is just because I don’t think it’s a common perspective. The end goal should be for no archtype to be left without a happy home or usage case, and preferably without silly nonsense lingering in game like the fastest fire rate scouts having the same total carried PvE ammo as the lowest RoF scouts (just an aside to point out how poor Bungie has been with detail work and fine tuning in the sandbox balance.) Alright, I think I’ve ranted enough for one night. Cheers to you, I really hope Bungie does get the handcannons to a spot that’s comfortable for players while also not pushing other primaries too far out of field.

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  • High shot dispersion up close is still a factor with Thorn. In that first week of earning it, I was face to face with another Thorn user and we had both reduced each other to a single hit at point blank with our initial shots before finding ourselves incapable of incapacitating the other till we switched to our Mindbenders, just outside melee range.

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  • Fair enough, I was exaggerating some language for effect and brevity in an already long-winded post. I really should have said, “don’t matter as much”

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  • I appreciate your insights. Thank you for taking the time to write your thoughtful post rather than a "you suck, get good" from a hand full of people that haven't spent as much time in the crucible as me combined.

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  • I'm able to do well in lobbies with most rpm hand cannons. 180's, 140, 150, 110. Use em all and most always stay positive

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  • Peak & shoot is all and well, but you still need to peak shoot quick enough & get enough rounds down to kill the opponent (and that requires accuracy & stability) Most of the time whilst shooting with 150/140/110’s the opponent just buggers off and regains their health after being clipped

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  • Exactly

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  • your using handcannons wrong if your trying to shoot at full rpm, peek and shoot then go back into cover is how you do it. or, how you do it if your using anything other than a 180rpm.

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  • Why should it be the case that you can't engage in the fire fight like any other weapon. It is not a sniper or a fusion rifle. People are not going to let you hug corners competitively with a full bloom hc when they can all rush with dust rock 180s combo and not be forced to play the same way.

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  • you have to play smart and look at the other teams load outs, then you adjust accordingly. you know if they are running drb they are going to bait corners and rush the be Jesus out of you. it's no mystery at this point.

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  • literally no other -blam!-ing weapon or precision HC is like that this sint a cover shooter. this is stupid

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  • I agree, but that's how you have to play with 140/150 handcannons. if not you get melted

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  • I guess maybe we could.... Reduce the bloom and tighten the recoil pattern on them. Dun dun dun!

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  • That's fine and dandy, but not relevant to the discussion of tuning the Thorn or other 150hc. That is what we are specifically discussing. I'm saying 150s don't compete with 180s and you're telling me to change my load out according to my opposition like it's anyone's first rodeo here.

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  • I never mentioned changing your loadout, just adjusting your game /playstyle depending on what your facing. plus, thorn is fine the way it is.

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  • I asked this knowing I have collectively played 47 times the amount of hours you have spent in pvp on this account.

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  • yeah, and?

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  • Edited by Seiryoku: 5/22/2019 11:56:40 PM
    Only that you have more collective melee kills than your less than 120 collective handcannon kills...

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  • ok, you can stalk my profile but I use handcannons elsewhere besides crucible. I have a very good understanding of how they work and I stand by my opinion. they behave the same way in pvp and pve so again, what's your point?

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  • You have played a lot of crucible with it?

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