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originally posted in: All my cores are gone.
Edited by kellygreen45: 4/24/2019 2:52:55 PM
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You aren't doing anything wrong. This is not a bug...its a FEATURE of Bungie's poor-and-misguided game design. The goal here is not to SATISFY you as a player. The goal is to FRUSTRATE you...and let the frustration of withholding anticipated rewards (getting to use the gear you want) to motivate you to continue to play. The goal (Bungie's) is for a SECOND grind to kick in now. One where you now have to grind masterwork cores so that you can level up the gear you want to play......or to have you keep grinding MILESTONES so that you can get duplicates of that gear, and infuse for glimmer. The goal is to keep all forms of progression so elusiive and unpredictable...so that you keep playing all the way to June (when the level cap goes up, and this shit starts all over again).....no matter what. Whether or not you enjoy this, or feel that your efforts have been reasonably rewarded, simply be damned. NOW you are seeing why the player base is so angry....and why we get even ANGRIER when people get in our faces and tell us "Oh you're just playing wrong. You just need to stop infusing every 1 or 2 level jumps". YOU are now seeing that this is simply a system that is irredeemably broken,unless you play the game in a extremerly narrow and extremely (for most people) unsatisfying way. You are seeing that this system DESTROYS build making, in a misguided effort to keep people who leave once they reach level cap in the game.
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  • You are very bad at managing your cores. If you put some thought into infusing, you'd be swimming in cores. If you need some help, I'd be happy to give you some pointers.

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  • Great another “You’re playing wrong”. I’ve played games like this for 20 years. I know what I’m doing. I’m playing a broken and badly designed game at best. A maliciously designed one at worst. One that I have no intentions of accommodating.

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  • [quote]I’m playing a broken and badly designed game at best. A maliciously designed one at worst. One that I have no intentions of accommodating.[/quote] So why are you crying like a 5 year old? Stop spending cores on poor upgrades or stop playing the game. It's sad you take no responsibility for your shortage of cores. Instead you play the victim.

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  • Edited by kellygreen45: 4/26/2019 4:54:55 PM
    1. I’m not crying. I’m an adult who recognizes a badly designed game when he’s playing one. 2. I’m fighting for the soul of a game that I care about. That I’ve poured 5000 hours of my life into , whose future is being jeopardized by Bungie’s short-sightedness and arrogance. 3. The success of The Division 2 shows that what we’re doing can work when it’s paired with hitting the developer where it hurts enough to get their undivided attention: their profit margin. So I’m hardly a child. I’m someone who understands what power I have in this situation and am willing to use it. I’m sorry if you don’t like it.

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  • [quote]I’m sorry if you don’t like it.[/quote] On the contrary. I love it. It's nice to encounter passionate people in the world. That's why I offered the help. Maybe math is not your specialty, idk but I can tell you have no idea how to manage your cores.

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  • Actually it’s one my talents. I just refuse to change how I play these kinds of games to accommodate Bungie and their inability to support the game properly. It’s not [i]can’t[/i], it’s [i]won’t.[/i]

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  • Now let's take a step back here, and take in all of the words stated; Bungie wants to, in your own words, "Frustrate the player"? How did you jump to this conclusion? [b]Why[/b] did you jump to this conclusion? That is the antithesis of what Game Developers want, whether they are in it for strictly money or player satisfaction; I can't say your play-style is wrong, because no, that is just wrong (Even though if i put the scenario like this; "I have money -> I just bought something -> I am out of money, the store is to blame), simply because it IS in the game to begin with, however, saying that there is only one option available is just wrong; I play crucible an hour a day, with raids every other week, and i'm perfectly fine with my core management (and yes, i do have sets for other activities like strikes, IB, ect.), and i know of other methods that are even better than playing the game.

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  • Edited by kellygreen45: 4/25/2019 4:39:40 PM
    [quote]How did you jump to this conclusion? Why did you jump to this conclusion?[/quote] I didn't. I only came to that conclusion back in January when Bungie made it clear that---despite the intensity of the on going uproar over them, and deteriorating relationship with the community----that they weren't going to back down and remove them..... ...that what I was seeing happening in the game wasn't an act of incompetence....but was intentional. [quote]That is the antithesis of what Game Developers want, whether they are in it for strictly money or player satisfaction;[/quote] You're assuming that **satisfaction** is the only way to keep someone consuming your product. Drug dealers have a steady supply of customers, and addicts are some of the angriest and most unhappy people you'll ever meet in your life. There are two basic ways of keeping someone playing a game like this. Games like Warframe, The Division 2, and Diablo 3 (Gold Standard) take the approach of doing it by REWARDING the player. The games are generous (in context) with the games rewards....progression is predictable and based on time-investment...and the rewards make you feel power. You have FUN playing the game. It feels GOOD to play the game becxause the game tickles the reward centers in your brain that are associated with satisfaction and a job well done. But there's another way to keep someone playing a game like this, if you don't CARE whether or not the player actually is enjoying the experience. In basically condition them to be ADDICTED to the game. This requires the malicious use of behavioral psychology....and a technique called "Operant Conditioning". Operant condition is how you train someone (or something...an animal) to BEHAVE in a particular way through a set of rewards and or punishments. Rewards encourage the subject to repeat desired behaviors. Punishments extinguish unwanted behaviors. I have two dogs at home...and this is how I teach them what I want from them. Corgis are smart, and catch on very quickly. But there are two approaches to this training....based on how you REWARD the behaviors you want. You can reward people an a PREDICTABLE schedule. Every time the person or animal does what you want....you reward it. This leads to rapid training....but at a price. Behaviors that were conditioned on predictable reward schedule are "fragile". Once you stop rewarding the behavior....it tends to stop unless the subject wants to repeat it. If you've ever worked a job...you're farmiliar with this. You show up to work and do your job...because you're rewarded every pay day with MONEY. But if your boss stops paying you, you quickly stop showing up and working. But how do you get someone to do something when you can't consistently reward them for doing it. Simple. YOU REWARD THE BEHAVIOR RANDOMLY . Or whats called a "Variable reward schedule". When someone does what you want. You give them a reward....but you don't reward them every time. Plus you don't reward them in a manner where they can predict when they'll be rewarded and when they wont'. But the subject still associates the behavior with the reward. So they repeat the behavior. Sometimes its rewarded. Sometimes it isn't. BUT THE SUBJECT ANTICIPATES/EXPECTS A REWARD...SO THEY KEEP REPEATING THE BEHAVIOR TRYING TO ELICIT THE EXPECTED REWARD. IOW. It is not pleasure that keeps the person repeating the behavior. But the FRUSTRATION of expecting a reward and NOT getting it. So they keep repeating the behavior trying force the reward to come. ...and it is this willingness to repeat a behavior for no ACTUAL reward that is both the power and the maliciousness of this kind of conditioning. Because it is the anticipation of reward...rather than actual reward....that motivates the behavior. People and animals will work harder and longer to get a reward than in situations where they were predictably rewarded..... ...and in many cases continue the behavior LONG after its stopped being rewarded at all. (Which is why you have all these elaborate schemes to get cores). In real world terms, this is often how addictions get set up in vulnerable people. (drugs, gambling)....and how abusers keep their victims close to them. They are variably rewarded by the abuser being very nice and solicitous after a period of abuse....and those periods of being nice are often just enough to keep the victim bonded to the abuser. In the case of this game. The Milestone system is set up in this fashion. You have a system of limited opportunities to progress your character....and you get random rewards. Which resutl in random progress. Prime engrame.....randomly rewarded but only fi you log in and play at regular intervals. The whole system is designed to condition us to PLAY DAILY and PLAY THE ENTIRE GAME....in return for unpredictable....random rewards. ...and random PROGRESSION. But it unlike the other games....it is the frustation at NOT recieving an expected reward that drives play. (Its the reason why everyone is saying that the game isn't fun to play anymore and it feels like a chore.) However, in certain people, that anticipation is enough to keep them grinding away indefinitely....for very little if any actual reward. The trick is that Bungie just need to dial in the level of frustration to JUST the right amount that they don't really have to give us very much in the way of loot to chase after.... ...but that they don't strain player patience to the breaking point.....realize that the carrot we're chasing was never intended to be caught....and we quit. Which is why everything in the game now has absurdly low drop rates, that Bungie is buffing. But only after player disatisfaction and FRUSTRATION reach a fever pitch. Which is why I keep saying the game is a Skinner Box...and were' being deliberately treated like laboratory pigeons. (Favorite animla for experiments in operant conditioning.) Our frustration and anger is not an accident [u][b]Its the intended result of the way in which this game's systems have been managed for the last year. [/b][/u] In an effort to keep us playing every day, despite this game's inability...and Bungie's inability....to keep the game supplied in loot to chase. IOW, to reward us predictably...and fairly.

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  • You: I didn't make that conclusion Also You: I jumped to that conclusion at this time Oh, and you just compared Video Game Design to illegal drug marketing On the REAL note, I noticed some "errors" (I'm trying to be nice about this, it is easy to trigger someone nowadays and i'm bad with words) in your page of 29 indents: For starters, the main problem i see is that you are treating "Enhancement / Masterwork Cores" as the end-game reward, and no offense, but that is just wrong; it is the guns, armor, and the experience (the roller coaster version, not the Experience version) that is the payoff. You don't go into Last Wish hoping that maybe, just maybe, you get more enhancement cores; you do it because it is fun, and / or you want that 1000 voices (which they buffed the dropped rate, can't say they aren't listening). Another issue i had was that the "Variable Reward Schedule" Only catered to people who Don't think the game is fun, or to those who are masochistic; if you are not enjoying something, it is more reasonable that you would stop doing said action. Finally, I think it is very unfair to assume that Bungie just wants to annoy the players with this one design choice, especially since they are changing it to be more accessible with the new Gunsmith bounties that are coming. But hey, that is just my 2 blues.

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  • Edited by kellygreen45: 4/25/2019 5:19:12 PM
    There are only two conclusions at this point after seven months. 1. The Investment Team at Bungie are trying to make a rewarding game. Are GROSSLY INCOMPETENT at it, and just happened to [i]stumble[/i] into a system well-designed to condition people to work for inconsistent and random rewards. And stubbornly refuse to change it.... Or.... 2. They are not incompetent. But are malicious and unprincipled enough to have set out to do it intentionally. And succeeded at their intended goal. Since it is their intended goal they refuse to change it, and don’t want to hear from their lab pigeons. Which scenario do YOU think is more likely at this point?? Honestly?

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  • honestly? neither, otherwise they wouldn't be changing the system

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  • Edited by kellygreen45: 4/25/2019 5:46:56 PM
    You’re being naive. They’re changing the system to suit their needs not yours. Whenever you try this type of conditioning you are always walking a tightrope. You want to reward the subject infrequently enough that you get the desired effect, but often enough that the subject doesn’t gets so frustrated that they quit...and the wanted behavior gets extinguished. So instead of simply removing cores, the keep trying to [i]just[/i] add enough of them with [i]just[/i] enough consistency to reduce the level of frustration to keep the desired behavior in place. IOW, everything the Investment Team is doing is what you’d expect them to do if this was done intentionally. And the fact that it dovetails perfectly with the ridiculously few rewards they’ve added to the game for Year 2 requires believing in a level of coincidence that I’m way too old and cynical to believe in anymore.

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  • WAIT wait wait wait wait... So even though changing the system into what the players desire, it is still only in their needs? No, I'm sorry, but even if i am Naive, what you present me with is some crackpot theory that sounds tinfoil-hat worthy. Based on what you said before, they were making the system to enrage players; okay, fine, but you can't tell me that is how the system will remain, even after it is changed to what players request, because then it is contradicting itself. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

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  • Edited by kellygreen45: 4/25/2019 6:59:04 PM
    You're being naive and asking the wrong questions. 1. Look around this place...and EVERY place this game is discussed. This community is not asking for the system to be "changed". THEY ARE DEMANDING THAT IT BE GOTTEN RID OF. A seemingly very simple request. So the question is "Why is Bungie willing to risk this level of customer anger, and dig their heels in and refuse to remove cores? What is BUNGIE getting out of this that they are willing to take these kinds of risks?" 2. Its not crackpot. Its not "tinfoil hat". Its pretty basic, college-level behavioral psychology. And if you don't think these corporations use these kinds of principles in the design and marketing of their products----when millions or even billions of dollars are at stake? Then you're even more naive than I thought. https://courses.lumenlearning.com/wmopen-psychology/chapter/reading-reinforcement-schedules/ [i]"With a variable interval reinforcement schedule, the person or animal gets the reinforcement based on varying amounts of time, which are unpredictable. Say that Manuel is the manager at a fast-food restaurant. Every once in a while someone from the quality control division comes to Manuel’s restaurant. If the restaurant is clean and the service is fast, everyone on that shift earns a $20 bonus. [b]Manuel never knows when the quality control person will show up, so he always tries to keep the restaurant clean and ensures that his employees provide prompt and courteous service. His productivity regarding prompt service and keeping a clean restaurant are steady because he wants his crew to earn the bonus."[/b][/i] So his employer conditions him to do what they want (maintain a high standard of cleanliness and service) by checking conditions at random and rewarding (or punishing) it at unpredictable intervals. So the standard is maintained continously....because its been rewarded UNPREDICTABLY. 3. No. I said the system was created to FRUSTRATE players and to condition them to work for RANDOM rewards rather than PREDICTABLE ones. Because....like Manuel's employers....Bungie wants us playing every day, but doesn't want to have to reward us every day for doing so like they did in Destiny 1. 4. [quote]ut you can't tell me that is how the system will remain, even after it is changed to what players request, because then it is contradicting itself. You can't have your cake and eat it too.[/quote] I'm not contradicting anything. What the players WANT is for cores to be removed and the game to move BACK to rewarding the player PREDICTABLY. Which is precisely what Bungie DOESN"T want...and why they are fighting so hard NOT to remove cores. Because cores are a critical linchpin in the system Bungie has created. Keeping the game undersuppled with them....and keeping us frustrated and unable to predict how and when we can acquire them...is key to maintaining the variable reward schedule...and the willingness to play without actual rewards. I can talk theory all day. But seeing is believing. Just fire up Destiny 2...and go LOOK at your Collections Page. Go SEE all the loot items you see on those pages from Year 1 in the game. Then look at how LITTLE has been added to the game for Forsaken....and how even less has been added through the Annual Pass. Black Armory gave us ONE set of weapons split up between the raid and the forges....and two sets of armor. One raid. One Black Armory. For this season....They gave us one set of weapons walled off behind such obnoxiously low drop rates in The Reckoning and Gambit Prime that they had to come back and Buff them....and ONE set of armor that has been split up to look like three. Also walled off behind participation in The Reckoning, and only useful in Gambit Prime. Throw in a few exotic weapon quests to try to get PVP players to buy the pass? And that's IT. So do you really want to believe that we get THIS little content added to the game....and **suddenly** we have changes made to the game's "investment systems" PERFECTLY designed to train people to work long and hard for few actual rewards......and despite the fact that they are incredibly unpopular..... Bungie stubbornly refuses to remove them.....and we're supposed to believe that this is all some big COINCIDENCE?? NO. -blam!-ING. WAY.

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  • I mean continue insulting me, I'm only giving you my 2 cents on the subject, after all, though i have no room to talk i said that you started to sound like someone who is making crackpot theories, so i'm guilty by all means. Bungie has spent so much time, money, and effort (last one is debatable to some) into this game, I find it hard to come to the conclusion that Bungie is outright hateful to their players, wanting them to be frustrated with their game; We even have proof, for the last couple of months, that Bungie HAS been listening, with the updates made to the game, and the CONSTANT community management effort made by People like DMG_04, Cozmo, and ect. You're right on that Forsaken part, they didn't add as much as the previous game, it isn't like it was $40 or anything, compared with a base game of 60$, and two DLC's that, even when combined to 40$, hold nearly the same amount of loot, if not, less than Forsaken And you're right, there isn't much for the Annual Pass Content; it was $35, while we still have one more season to go through, we have more stuff to go through, and Aren't done. As a retort to your "This community is _____," It has ALWAYS been this way, for nearly every topic Remember that Shotgun Nerf? I remember people being furious, and look at what happened, not much changed. Remember Eververse? They stopped having her limited engrams at events stuff, and people were upset about that too, starting posts upon posts for her to basically be exiled from the game, and here we all are, not complaining about it on the forums. Also, you are just wrong about that armor part, they gave us the Iron Banner Gear, Eververse Stuff (Remember Her), the Gambit Prime stuff that goes with different playstyles, though you should count that as a one in terms of design, and revelry gear We do have content, the discussion at hand was about enhancement cores, so don't change the subject.

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  • Edited by kellygreen45: 4/26/2019 9:44:38 AM
    You imply I’m a crazy conspiracy theorist, and somehow I’m insulting you by calling you naive? You. Are. Naive. And being willfully blind. I link articles describing what I’m talking about in fine detail, along with real world examples of its use. ....and all you have is, “[i]Oh I can’t believe they’d be that hateful.”[/i] Trust me. When you make people scared or desperate enough, they’ll do things like this and worse. Especially for the amounts of money we’re talking about. Doubly so if they believe that what they’re doing won’t be discovered. Also scientifically demonstrated principle of social psychology. Oh and it doesn’t matter what kind of people Cozmo and dmg04 are because they aren’t the ones making these decisions, and their efforts have basically had zero impact on those who are.

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  • If you get frustrated during grinding thats a problem on you. You are supposed to grind cores so you dont have to later

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  • Your rationalism seems to trigger peeple!

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  • Because there is no rational defense of this system. Bungie is doing it out of desperation. The players who support it either play in a way such that the pain of the system doesn't touch them.....or they think that their willingness to tolerate this broken and abusive system somehow validates them as a "hardcore" player, or gives them some sort of status in the community. IT DOESN'T. It just just marks them as someone who has as little respect for the value of their own time (and effort) as Bungie does.

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  • Edited by FataLVisioN_Oo: 4/24/2019 11:34:48 PM
    It takes 2-3 cores to infuse up gear.. in some cases it can be free. He had 90+ cores.. that's over 30 pieces of gear that can be brought up to light. So you are trying to tell us 30 pieces of gear isn't enough for multiple builds? The OP is clearly lying/ exaggerating in his post and you are a sheep. Besides Hawthorne alone gives you 21 guranteed cores a week for just playing.... and OP said he didn't infuse anything until he hit max light........ the math doesnt add up. You can infuse up an entire build from Hawthorne alone every week.

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  • It’s not enough to do what he wants. I’d need 200 cores a week to replicate my pre-Forsaken play style. That’s been taken away, and what did I get in return ??? Exactly??

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  • Edited by FataLVisioN_Oo: 4/25/2019 12:20:33 AM
    So you'd need to be able to make 12 builds per week with cores left over? Why? There aren't even that many builds in the game as a whole.

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  • Edited by kellygreen45: 4/25/2019 12:24:56 AM
    ROFLMAO. Oh hell yes there is. That and so many more. Just because you lack the creativity to find them doesn’t mean they don’t exist. And 200 cores a week is what it would take to level those builds up with me as I progress, like I did pre-Forsaken.

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  • Exotics are basically the only thing that change your build drastically to even notice. Legendary armors perks that even make a small difference are enhanced perks and scavenger/reserve perks for special and power ammo. Having 8+ different armor sets will not play very different than just having one or 2 armor sets you use for most everything in the game. Saying you need to get 200 cores a week is the dumbest thing I’ve heard all week.

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  • I agree cores bad. I disagree destiny has very much build variety. There are very few perks that actually change playstyle or gameplay in a significant way. Anything that's not rampage or kill clip is almost useless.

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