Zavala frustrates me because he is such a good character but he is held back by his role. I want to see Zavala do amazing things. But I dont think we will see that unless its his last moments. If that does happen though. He better go down swinging dual thunderlords.

Zavala didn't rally anyone: we did. All he did was go piss himself on Titan. Until we showed up, he was basically the dude from Aliens yelling, "Game over, man!" At least Ikora went looking for answers, I feel like Zavala just went to find a place to die. Maybe chose it because it had the same name as his class? Sounds like a pretty Titan thing to do. Meanwhile, Cayde was off chasing a Vex teleported to suicide-run Ghaul. Zavala is coward, he ran off to go weep while Cayde took action and Ikora went looking for a solution. Ironically, the chicken was braver than Vuvuzala. Also, we won't be abandoning humanity to save ourselves: we'll be the only ones left alive. It's called an extinction-level event for a reason.

Don’t forget that he’s the one that sent the cabal leaders a warning after we killed the Bond Brothers in D1 leading to the attack of the tower.

Well TECHNICALLY, if you side with the Drifter [spoiler]aren’t you also technically siding with the Vanguard, since they’re actually somewhat working with him. Siding with “the Vanguard” is really just siding with the Praxic Order, more specifically Aunor. I chose to side with the Drifter because well...Aunor is just bat shit crazy[/spoiler] Anyway, people give Zavala a lot of shit for not going after Uldren but it wouldn’t be logical to storm the reef. Zavala has a choice between Vengeance and Duty. He chose Duty. That’s takes serious restraint. Cause was his friend and teammate but he had a responsibility to look after the city and protect. That being said...he probably could have spared a fireteam or two to help take down Uldren.

He chose to defend the masses of innocent defenseless people in the city over sending all the guardians after a few nutjobs and an emo and a job mind you that was eventually done by like 3 people. It’s the adult thing to do. It’s what leaders do.

"Guardians" That is literally the dumbest way to address mankinds guardian as Zavala ran away with his tail between his legs. One could say he wanted to "rebuild" on Titan but it is obvious that after losing the "Light". He was nothing more than a coward while the Guardian aka us, did all of the heavy lifting. Hell we got kicked off Ghaul's ship and were on the verge of death as we fled the city, but at least we still fought. Zavala was a broken mess after losing more lightless guardians on a planet so close to the Dreadnought, it was obvious that was a stupid plan. I mean just look at the damn thing, its still sitting right there in orbit in the rings of Saturn. Of course the hive would have eventually spread out and would you look at that, Titan isn't to far from the Dreadnought. What are "Guardians"? Do you have an answer as they aren't soldiers. Even though they threw thousands at the moon only to get massacred and when the Fallen houses united. More of them died and with each one who falls, that is one less "guardian" protecting mankind. One can make the arguement that stretching themselves thin is a bad move but remember. They had literally HUNDREDS of years to rebuild and the best they have is the city. I would laugh especially since the Cabal showed they can take it simply by bringing in a massive fleet. While in contrast what does the city have? Jump ships are the best they got and they aren't -blam!- much in terms of armament as the Cabal steamrolled over the Guardians. Say what you will about the sneak attack, but guess what. The Cabal took INITIATIVE. Using tactics established, they assaulted the city when they were celebrating. What kind of foolish leader would leave themselves exposed especially when they don't even have control of there own homeworld. Again they had hundreds of years to kick the Fallen out and instead they huddled under a giant ball in the sky. I am surprised the Cabal hadn't done this sooner as even before the Red Legion showed up. The Cabal had a sizeable fleet that would have still put the jump ships to shame. Oh well you'd think they'd have learned right? Wrong, the guardians are as arrogant as ever after regaining there light again and Zavala refuses to take initiative. Not that it matters though as the Darkness are inbound. Also would like to point out the city is still rebuilding. Good bye City... again. Too late to do anything though as guess what. The guardians are splintered amongst themselves, the vanguard isn't as unified as one thinks and they are short a hunter vanguard. Guardians aren't shown to have replaced the hundreds, thousands if not tens of thousands gone and so they couldn't be weaker even if there god is "awake". The Traveler hasn't done s*it since it woke up and a massive fleet is inbound. Oh well, with the incompetence of the vanguard on display at least the warmind is willing to take initiative. Not that it matters though as even when mankind was at there height, he couldn't stop the darkness and we are still busy with the Scorn and Savathun so yeah... Hopeless is the best word to describe D3.

My problem with Zavala is he is a huge stick-in-the-mud and very dull. Always, going on about why something can't or shouldn't be done. Its too risky. Meanwhile, Zavala and Ikora criticize and berate Cayde, yet Cayde is the only one getting shit done. So -blam!-, Zavala.

“Abandoning humanity”? Buddy, we WANT Humanity to come with us. Those who don’t will die. Darkness is coming. And no one will be able to stand against it. Plain and simple. You wanna die? Be my guest. You and the coward can go

An interesting argument, albeit one with some aspects I disagree with. Such as: [quote]In the Red War, however, Zavala is the only one who rallies the guardians on Titan to make a counterattack[/quote] I distinctly recall Zavala ordering us to back off, claiming that there was no point, while Sloane (love her!) was the one who kept pushing forward. It's understandable - his entire [i]universe[/i], centuries of experience, had been upended in one all-too-brief battle. He powered forward and eventually pushed through it, which to my mind is the mark of [i]true[/i] courage: Courage is found in battling your fears and doubts, after all! [quote]In Warmind, Zavala doesn’t want us to mess with Rasputin, and everyone seems to forget the last time someone did that Rasputin nuked the Iron Lords and unleashed SIVA. Rasputin is a Wild Card.[/quote] While true, one of Zavala's (relatively few) weaknesses comes forward in [i]Warmind[/i] - that he is a fundamentally defensive-minded person and leader. This has its upsides, but playing a "denial" or "scorched-earth" (in extreme situations) strategy is generally not a way to win. He doesn't, for example, ever formulate a plan to take the fight abroad to humanity's various enemies - even when matters are (mostly) quiet in and near the City. In order to win a lasting victory against a superior foe, you must be willing to embrace [i]some[/i] risks, and to keep in mind the potential gains of possible actions, as well as their potential costs. However - it's not the same as "cowardice", that's for sure. [quote]Ikora, the emotionally unbalanced person she is (no offense) calls for every single guardian to storm the reef and kill Uldren to avenge ONE person.[/quote] I respectfully disagree, on three counts. First, Ikora is not an "emotionally unbalanced person"; [i]anyone[/i] can have a moment of emotion in response to the fall of a lifelong friend and loved one, especially when "lifelong" really does mean "centuries and/or millennia long". Indeed, the lore I've read indicates that until she's placed under massive, PTSD-inducing levels of stress, she's remarkably level-headed, calm and dispassionate. Then her control over her emotions breaks. That doesn't make her "emotionally unbalanced", but [i]human[/i] - and very self-disciplined with it. Second, revenge was only part of Ikora's reasoning; implied with the "If he thinks this is the end...it's [i]not.[/i]" statement is a whole layer of meaning. Just for starters, letting Uldren Sov go unpunished would have sent a message to every piece of scum in the solar system - a message of weakness. Zavala would not have intended it, but that is how it would have been taken. And more Guardians would have died, at the hands of malefactors eager to seize advantage, gain prestige and avenge past slights both real and imagined. Third, Uldren Sov was well-known, from interactions with him before the Taken War, to detest [i]all[/i] Guardians, not Cayde-6 in particular. Allowing him to vanish into the shadows to plot and scheme would - as far as anyone in the Tower could tell - result in him going after other Guardians in the coming weeks and months. [quote]Cayde or no, one person doesn’t merit the entirety of the Guardians to storm the reef, a place of no strategic importance, to kill Uldren, who was literally going mad.[/quote] 1) We didn't know that, based on what little Petra Venj had chosen to share with us. Remember, she carefully kept Uldren's insanity a secret, known only to herself and Variks. Paradoxically, once it did become clear that Uldren was mad (and genociding his own people), it made it both more worthwhile [i]and[/i] less worthwhile to go after him. "More" because he would logically command less loyalty (and defenders) from among the Reef, "less" because a madman is less of a threat going forward than a sane, malevolent King of the Reef. 2) The Reef is very much a place of strategic importance; if for no other reasons, it is the home of a vast array of scrapped starships, including many belonging to our enemies, as well as a formidably well-placed early warning station. That's two different ways of "knowing our enemy" that it controls, plus access to virtually limitless amounts of processed and semiprocessed materials. 3) I do think sending the entire Vanguard would have been overreaction, though - we did, and do, have other priorities to consider. [quote]I even suspect that Zavala, as an Awoken, felt it wrong for him to kill his own kind, and a prince and brother to Mara Sov, no less.[/quote] [i]That[/i] should have no bearing on Zavala's decision-making, by the very standards he keeps ramming down everyone else's throats. Besides the many centuries he's spent in the Vanguard, he's always been among the most hardline of the "Thou shalt NOT have a past life!" school of thought (cf: Ana Bray, as one example). To his credit, I don't think it [i]did[/i] have any bearing on his decision. [quote]Now for the Allegiance quest, where many Edgelords showed their true colors and sided with that shifty-eyed drifter.[/quote] I know this is the Internet, but one need not be an "Edgelord (sic)" to disagree with you. I can understand why a Guardian might decide that Zavala's path is not one they're comfortable following; besides his increasing push for chain-of-command, regular-military stuff (hey, when did I sign up for the Army?), Zavala has a bad habit of preparing to fight the last war rather than the next one, and his tactical and strategic vision is overcautious (IMO) and a little blinkered. Likewise, I can understand why a Guardian might decide to stick with Zavala; the Drifter really [i]doesn't[/i] inspire confidence in his integrity and/or honour, he's fooling around with paracausal weapons we don't know how to use safely, and he's made it abundantly clear that his No.1 priority is his own gain. [quote]Aunor is close with Ikora, so when the time comes she’ll remind her of our choice.[/quote] Aunor's close to Ikora - but we're closer. We're one of the few she considers both a friend [i]and[/i] an equal; Aunor's influence over Ikora would pale next to ours. Even if that were not the case, Aunor's operating beyond her mandate (in defiance of it, in fact!) and both she and Ikora know it. I don't fear any Aunor-based reactions to our decision, in either direction.

Just remembered this line from zavala [ we are not a army we’re not concretor’s ] then what the he’ll have been fighting for .. for the last five years . besides the fact when have the vanguards or zavala treated us guardians like people instead of like pets to do their bidding? Zavala the spineless coward of the tower

He deserves to die

The long troll. You little -blam!-, you got me. This is a high quality shitpost here my friend.

If you aren’t standing with the drifter by now your just aren’t paying attention. If you read the lore, you realize there is only one direction for the future of guardians, and the vanguard isn’t it.