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Edited by TJM99: 4/16/2019 1:03:17 AM
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I'm willing to say Destiny has the most ridiculously toxic community ever. It's not even elitist hate anymore for people not having Gjallarhorn anymore. We're arguing over something that: has no positive impact does absolutely nothing for the game in its current state except make it worse for most players more than others if it was changed would objectively benefit everyone provides a happy medium between thoughtful and unpainful infusion is recurrent season after season and is pushing people away each time We actually are willing to demean, and insult others and treat them like complete stupid children as if we were their parents and need to tell them what to do. [i][b]WE CAN'T AGREE ON ANYTHING AND THAT IS SAD.[/b][/i]
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  • [quote][i][b]WE CAN'T AGREE ON ANYTHING AND THAT IS SAD.[/b][/i][/quote] [b][i]NOT EVERYONE AGREES THAT MY OPINION IS OBJECTIVE FACT AND THAT IS SAD.[/b][/i] Your point is essentially that the game should be easier because then everyone could be number one and that would fix everything and the forums would be sunshine and rainbows.

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  • No. Like progression gets easier because cores aren't in infusion. That doesn't make sense. My point is how even when I make that statement, you try to turn that around against me like I'm focused on my opinion over observable reality and want the game to be an empty easy mode. Cores have only shown a negative impact, yet when people want that fixed, it's somehow their fault it's a problem, that's absurd and only drives more people away.

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  • [quote]you try to turn that around against me like I'm focused on my opinion over observable reality[/quote] Because that's effectively what you're doing. Cores have virtually zero impact on progression and do not prevent you from playing through any content in the game. They are primarily an end-game item meant to increase end-game playtime by giving players something to grind for to fully min/max their favorite gear. You are being, at best, ignorant when you continue to argue that cores are somehow ruining the game and only providing negative experiences for players. They serve a discreet function that has been in games for literal decades and is something that millions of players enjoy having: reward for time invested. You don't have to like it, you don't have to agree that it's fun. But you can't be dishonest and claim it's something it isn't.

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  • Edited by TJM99: 4/17/2019 2:09:03 PM
    [quote]They are primarily an end-game item meant to increase end-game playtime by giving players something to grind for to fully min/max their favorite gear.[/quote] Fun Fact: That doesn't include infusion. Infusion was [i]never[/i] a min/max chase, Nothing never actually improves a stat from it.

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  • Raising the light level of a weapon increases its damage. That's a stat. You also don't need your weapons to be max light level to play through the content, but if you'd like to maximize your damage (a stat), you'll want to infuse your favorite weapons to their max light level. And if you want to improve another one of their stats, you'll want to masterwork them.

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  • [quote]Raising the light level of a weapon increases its damage.[/quote] Level isn't a real damage stat, it's just what factors into your overall light and the average is a value either above or over par, where you either get a damage reduction/increase that both cap out at around 50 above or below. Your stuff doesn't actually get better and do more damage, it just meets a new standard with each increase. This is why power isn't looked at with actual meaning, 700 is no different than 400 on Earth. This is to suggest that Infusion actually being some big deal beyond personal choice is just completely false. Higher build investment involves mods and masterworks with the right perks on everything, not getting the gear up to standard.

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  • Edited by Eskareon: 4/18/2019 1:01:27 PM
    Unless Bungie changed something in the past couple months, weapon light level directly affects weapon damage. It also affects your overall light level, which affects things like ability damage, melee, etc. There is still the "normalized" cap mechanic as you said, where +/- 50 hits the max and min, but weapon light level dictates weapon damage within that range. So, in any given zone or mission that's at your relative light level range (which is all that matters for the sake of argument), weapon level definitely matters for weapon damage and should be considered functionally the same as a damage stat/buff. And this brings us to a point I'm sure we agree on: Bungie could do a hell of a lot better job explaining, clearly, in-game, what everything means and how it affects us as players. We don't need them to hold our hand and tell us what to equip, we just need them to tell us how their system works so we can make our own gear decisions without wondering if we even know what we're doing. I suspect a lot of people who are frustrated with infusion would be less bothered by it if they understood how light levels actually work (which is what happened with me). But, the game is clear as mud with that, and since we've all probably played similar FPS/RPG'ish games in the past, we of course would think that we need to raise our light level as quickly as possible, and the only seemingly intuitive way of doing that is by infusing things constantly. That's the only obvious mechanic in the game aside from what seems like random drops based on the zone you're in. But wait: turns out, nope, there's a hidden system where gear drops are based on all gear on your character and in your bank per each gear slot. So you don't even really need to infuse anything, ever, because if you hold onto your highest level stuff, you'll keep getting higher level drops. So unless you just hate all the weapons in the game, or you really really love certain ones, you'll always have plenty of fun ones to use while you're leveling up, and you don't need to infuse at all. Oh, and overall light level affects some things, and weapon light level affects other things. Oh, and there's a formula that determines your damage given/received based on your light level relative to the enemy, but there's hard caps on that. What are those damage adjustments? What are those caps? Hahahaha please kid, we can't just TELL you that in the game, you need to go read the forums, or maybe this outdated PCGamer article. Because that's what good game design is all about: leaving your players completely clueless about the basic fundamental mechanics of your game! /rant

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  • I could never tell you once where a gun's high light made it alone do more damage. It's not even really higher damage, it's a bonus for being higher. I can have a 400 and 700 AR and they'd both do the same damage to the dregs on Earth. It's not like Warframe where I can mod out the Tigris Prime to dish out 20,000 damage a shell and kill people by breathing on them. Don't dismiss our frustrations as ignorance. One does not need to have a constant infusion problem or a lack of loadout diversity to have a problem with this. I play the efficieny game, however my biggest infusion problems kick in at max, where to try and max out the rest of my stuff is still beyond costly with cores. Causing me to actually use less things than I want because I can't afford to try other things in newer stuff. Whether it matters or not, it feels nice to see the max level on everything, why make that such a pain in the ass? None of it makes sense, there's no good way to justify it.

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  • But that's just it - yes, it feels nice to have everything maxed out, but you don't need it to be. That's something you work toward. If it were so easy to max everything, then light level (which is essentially a replacement for some stats) becomes effectively meaningless and players have one fewer thing to grind for. But games like Destiny are as much about the grind as they are the content, that's just the nature of this type of game. Lots of people enjoy having something to work toward. Even RNG-based grinds give a huge sense of reward when players finally get the drop they've wanted. This is foundational stuff for grind-based games. In Destiny, even if your gear isn't maxed, you can actually use all of the gear you want to use, it will just be slightly less powerful. Having slightly lower light level doesn't stop you from completing all the content in the game, and it certainly isn't weakening enough to say it *forces* you to use something else. That's a personal choice, but not a requirement. If you really like having lots of different sets of gear all maxed out, then you'll have to put in the extra time to focus on getting those cores. But the game isn't balanced around that, it's not even balanced around having one set of maxed out gear (except in competitive PvP, obviously). Yet even two sets of your favorite gear, maxed out, is completely achievable with casual play. If you want to be above-average, you have to put in extra time to get there.

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  • Edited by TJM99: 4/18/2019 3:20:58 PM
    I don't care if I need it to be or not, I just want it to be that way. Player perception, player goals, if you bastardize that process, then you're disincentivizing people from even trying. I already do have to work towards it, what are you talking about??? It's not hit 700 and then everything else just magically turns 700. People already look at power like it's nothing special anyway, no one does that anymore. The "omg he's max" thought is gone, no one cares. Infusion is not looked at with intense thought or meaning, it never was. Grind in Destiny is attributed to getting the things you want, [i]not to continue using them[/i]. [quote]If you really like having lots of different sets of gear all maxed out, then you'll have to put in the extra time to focus on getting those cores. [/quote] Absolutely not, this is bad game design, you do not punish the player with a second layer of grind when they've already put in the extra time and effort to get and store and create more builds. I've already spent plennnty of time freaking brainstorming these things. Why the hell would I go further out of my way to just to even use these things when I already spent the time to get them, and think about them? We wanna talk about not fair? that is 100% not fair. I shouldn't have to waste my time getting a capstone currency that I would rather use to [b]maximize[/b] the potential of my gear, and not just so I can even freaking use it in new places. There is no need for it, it accomplishes nothing, it doesn't help the game, it just pisses people off. If you some sort of semblance of 'work' for infusion, guess what, THERE'S OTHER CURRENCIES, ones that actually reflect your time investment organically. We're a year and a half into this,[b] basic crap shouldn't be a problem anymore.[/b]

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  • Edited by Eskareon: 4/18/2019 4:10:57 PM
    And this is what every anti-core argument comes down to, every single time: you don't like it, you want things to be easier, you don't want to put in a handful of hours a week to do something you don't like doing. All of the other strawman fallacies fall away, because they were untrue and dishonest from the beginning: all the ranting about cores interfering with progression, about cores requiring impossible luck and hours to acquire, about cores inhibiting players from playing the game - all lies, all dishonest. These arguments always break down to the real truth behind all of the screaming and ranting, which is what you said: [b][i]I don't care if I need it to be or not, I just want it to be that way.[/i][/b] Yes, we are all very aware of what [b][i]you[/i][/b] want. Millions of other gamers, and the actual developers of this very game, want something else. You're arguing against a principle cornerstone of specific game design, and you should probably go play a different type of game.

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  • Edited by TJM99: 4/18/2019 5:06:51 PM
    Lies and Dishonesty, are you actually kidding me? Who has been saying:? "I cannot reach 700 because of cores" "I don't want to work to get the gear I want" "Cores are [b]impossible[/b] to get" It is [b]not[/b] about the power grind. It is not about handouts of gear It is not about difficulty of getting cores (Everyone here knows how, and most don't care because it sucks or proves how it's broken (Vance) ) There are more leaning on not even wanting cores to begin with vs wanting more. Cores fundamentally do not belong in the system. Infusion is not a capstone investment, masterworking is. Things like that are what cores are for, not the former. Would you like Zavala or Banshee to require cores for every legendary transaction? That's how dumb it is. Those things have their own currency, Infusion has it's own currency, masterworking has its own currency. Have you never played with matching toys as a child? Supporting cores in a system they just don't belong in is like saying that it's okay for the child to break the toy trying to jam the square peg into the circle hole. Thinking more cores will solve the issue is like saying a smaller square peg that does fit in the circle hole is fine [spoiler][b]It's not[/b][/spoiler] You're quoting me out of context in a way that doesn't even make sense. That is not, "I don't care how the game works, I just want everything" Don't try that garbage. You pointed out how there's no need to be 700, true. I point out how I really don't care about that because it doesn't matter in the end. There's nothing to gain by stunting people's ability to make other things 700, once they are already 700, [b]nothing[/b]. They already did all of the work and RNG fights to get there, they aren't asking to just have everything change for free, yet apparently wishing simple currencies to be all that is needed for the simple process is apparently entitled and selfish? This could not be any more wrong. Getting the gear is the grind, grinding an upkeep cost is a chore, the dumbest chore to be ever conceived in a game where upkeep is barely a concept. Cores in infusion does nothing but destroy their identity. Masterworks are barely a thought for some people, even if they can afford it, no one wants to. They're called infusion cores for a reason now. It's a play on how terrible they are working in the system. Feedback is CRUCIAL in game design. The feedback is mostly: [b]People. Do. Not. Want. This. [/b] If you're gonna try to invalidate that by simply pointing the finger at them, despite so many arguments against them being perfectly understandable and there just being too many damn holes in the argument to defend them, People. Will. Quit. They are not going to "just play the game" because you told them to (like a parent) because there are much more rewarding experiences that they could be having than grinding cores just to play how they want. We are supposed to put ourselves up for the job, not be told how fine it is and that we should do it. "Do we really think the problem is with the players or is it a problem with the game?" If people do not care, they will not do it, because something is wrong with it. This is not just about me, sorry I showed a slight amount of emotion and acted in the first person. I realize that makes all logically sound arguments invalid here.

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  • Edited by Eskareon: 4/18/2019 6:04:52 PM
    Saying "cores shouldn't be in infusion" doesn't make it true. That is your opinion and your preference, but you're passing off your gaming preference as if it is a tenet of game design. Cores are one of many grind elements in Destiny. They serve a purpose, and part of that purpose is to extend time investment for players to reach the end-game min/max scenario. I like it. Bungie likes it. Apparently the majority of the playerbase likes it (or at the very least, don't have a problem with it) as Bungie has repeatedly reviewed the feedback, addressed the issue, even improved core obtainability, all while reaffirming that they think cores are in a good place. Repeatedly. Again, you can keep telling us that cores "shouldn't" be this or that, but that is your opinion, your preference, for how you play games. They are not inherently broken, or wrong, or illogical. It is a very common, very straightforward, very acceptable implementation of a grind. You don't have to like it, that doesn't mean it's broken. Bungie could go the route plenty of other games have gone: whoops, that gear you have is lower level because you got it last month when you were lower level. Sorry, you'll have to hope it drops for you again at a higher level, tough luck. Or, whoops, that legendary item you've wanted just dropped in a low-level zone, so it's going to be low-level and weak, forever. Want a stronger version? Farm high-level zones and pray to RNGesus. Or, whoops, that weapon WAS awesome back when the light level cap was 600, but the latest expansion raised that, so now all your old gear is going to be obsolete - go grind for new gear all over again. Instead, you have the opportunity to take any old gear you want and bring it up to max power later in the game. You get to choose any old gear you want, regardless if it's "meta" or not, and max it out and still use it in the latest content years later. The cost is a rare item you have to farm for. If you don't want to farm for that item, then you'll just have to use whatever gear drops for you at higher light levels. This is very normal gaming grindy stuff.

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  • Edited by TJM99: 4/18/2019 7:06:13 PM
    Infusion isn't part of min/maxing, cores do not belong. No max build ever demands max light, it's the stats that are desired. Everywhere these discussions are had, it's more against than for, so a majority can't possibly be for them. Bungie has actually never said why they think we're in a good place, they've only ever said what they're trying to do. They are met with an unrelenting "It isn't working" and don't ever respond to any of it. The dev team has not justified their logic at all when so many have been finding it to not make any sense. [quote]They are not inherently broken, or wrong, or illogical. It is a very common, very straightforward, very acceptable implementation of a grind[/quote] Even you aren't defending your claims, you're just saying that this is fine. Well, why? You guys don't actually defend cores, you just say that those against it are wrong to think so because it's their "opinion". That doesn't make your side right. I can type paragraphs about each and every problem cores are causing and you just chuck it with the opinion card and say "it's fine, this is how these games are". Destiny is different, cores only got put in 7 months ago, so no, infusion was never some special act. So many disagreed with Bungie when they put them in. Then it was tone deaf response after tone deaf response. It's really bad. I didn't even go into how cores hurt the new player experience, which is really bad for player growth. No one's been able to even explain an actual negative impact from fixing infusion, not one.

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