Gonna start this off by saying this is the first time I've every felt motivated enough to actually take the time to provide feedback on the weapons of Destiny/Destiny 2. But after I watched Darkside's video on what he would do to Thorn I couldn't help but agree with him on most of his points. So for those who don't want to take the time to watch his video I'll break it out below. Anyways lets begin... Thorn by its earliest lore definitions and potency in Y1 Destiny Crucible was the very definition of a Guardian killing weapon. Notice how I said Guardian killing weapon... sadly this does not equate to Thorn's current state on Destiny 2 at least in Crucible. I will say this: Thorn is much more viable on Destiny 2's PvE side than it ever was in D1 PvE. However for Destiny 2 PvP Thorn does not live up to it's name and dark purpose within the current sandbox due to a number of vast number of reasons. First lets talk about some extremely good PvP handcannons and why they excel to a point where Thorn cannot overcome them. Ace of Spades: Perks: Memento Mori, Dragonfly, and an intrinsic faster reload on precision kills). Ace is a very iconic weapon that once belonged to our beloved late Hunter Vanguard Cayde-6. In Destiny 2 especially the gun is so well built that it can exceed at nearly any gametype (PVE, Crucible, and Gambit). Every perk on the weapon helps to increase the lethality it carries. With its main perk Momento Mori giving you 5 bullets in the magazine with superb range/accuracy (by superb I mean it almost outclasses even Scout Rifles), as well extra damage allowing for some incredible far range 3 taps against nearly every Guardian. But then on top of Memento Mori you have dragonfly which can cause damage to nearby enemies and potentially even collateral kills if you catch enemies clumped together and in bad positioning. Furthermore Ace of Spades is so strong at range it can overwhelm Not Forgotten/Luna's Howl very very consistently which brings me to my next two examples of fantastic Crucible handcannons; Not Forgotten/Luna's Howl Perks: Magnificent Howl, Accurized Rounds/Zen Moment (NF) / Drop Mag/Zen Moment (LH). These two handcannons are by definition pinnacle weapons within the very loosely said "endgame" of PVP (we'll get you back someday Trials). Earned by a lengthy quest, and a very daunting climb through the Competitive Ranks they rightly deserve a spot on a top tier handcannon list. So lets talk Magnificent Howl. This perk allows you to 3 tap any Guardian so long as all three hits are precision hits while these handcannons are in an archetype that requires 4 precision headshots to kill a Guardian. That is a tremendous boon to the NF/LH as an handcannon main instinctively goes for the heashots anyways, on top of this these two beauties are in a super advantageous archetype over 150, 140, and 110rpm handcannons as they retain near perfect in-air accuracy and recoil direction. On top of that Not Forgotten especially has an incredible amount of range allowing for it to duel a lot of pulse rifles, auto rifles, and those few scout rifle users very consistently. The Last Word Perks: Fan Fire, Accurized Rounds, Hipfire Grip. The ying to the yang of Thorn. The Last Word is a 220rpm handcannon that is capable of delivering some of the fastest 3 taps in game. It's perks revolve around hip firing for increased reload speed and accuracy with each landed shot. TLW lacks in range to the Thorn but is still very viable in the Crucible because it's fire rate can shut down shotgun rushers, low armor supers (Side Note: Bungie please give us traditional golden gun users some armor, you literally gave every super in the game so much armor you can't take them down with anything short of a six man firing squad of Wardcliff Coils (I'm kidding, but real talk Supers in today's sandbox are outright obnoxious to try and kill), but if an enemy touches a traditional Goldy with even a pebble you're done. I'd even wager it's the only super you can comfortably challenge with a primary weapon...). Anyways I digress TLW is defined by it's crushing fire rate making it a devastating weapon even against weapons like Ace, NF, or LH when you get into close quarters. Another worthy mention would be a perfectly rolled Service Revolver which outright outclasses Luna's Howl and can rival a Not Forgotten/Ace in skilled hands, on top of that you simply need to complete 40 strikes to have a chance at earning the perfect rolled Service Revolver. Strikes, not PvP, strikes. Moving on lets talk about the advantages of Ace, Not Forgotten/Luna's Howl, and even The Last Word in regards to their main perks: Ace of Spades: To activate Mememto Mori you must first kill any enemy Guardian, then reload for the buff. The way this works out you can kill a Guardian dodge into cover, reload, regain a bit of health, and nearly immediately challenge opposing players again). NF/LH: To activate Magnificent Howl you must land 2 consecutive headshots for the third to be a high damage precision shot capable of securing you that crispy 3 tap. TLW: Literally point gun at opposing Guardian and let that bull (the animal of course) of a revolver kick until they die while stacking your reload/accuracy buff, all while praying that the Hipfire Gods ever smile upon you. Legit love this gun xD Now lets look at Thorn and its perks. Mark of the Devourer: Damaging an enemy causes damage over time, and kills leave behind remnants. In theory this perk should be very strong in the Crucible, DOT stops health regen of fleeing Guardians. However watching footage and playing it with it myself, the DOT just doesn't feel strong enough. I have seen so very many times where an opponent will escape with likely less than 10 health. Its super underwhelming to know that although you won the fight you couldn't secure the kill (I know, I know, insert "Git Gud" comment here. I see you all typing keyboard warriors ;P), but surely you've all had that moment too where you thought they'd burn out and they pull a nope card and skrrrrrrrrrt away to fight another day. I'd recommend bumping the ticks up to at very least 3 damage, maybe even 4 damage for a normal shot, and keep the empowered Devourer bullets at 7 per tick). 7 is strong as it; but the base DOT is so underwhelming that the Le Monarque (a bow that is literally a rip off bow morph of our Thorn!) deals more DOT than Thorn as it is now. COME ON BUNGIE... For those who aren't familiar with the Le Monarque, it deals 5 ticks of 3 damage totaling 15 DOT; Thorn should in my opinion at least match the Le Monarque if not deal more DOT than the Le Monarque. Lets next talk about remnants... Oh boy this one... So Remnant collection is inherently worse than both Ace of Spades and Not Forgotten/Luna's Howl as you have to abandon your positioning to collect your remnants for a buff. This very commonly puts you into bad positioning simply to get you a buff that raises your DOT and adds a bit of extra damage. Do you see Ace of Spades users having to collect playing cards to activate Memento Mori? Nope... What about our Not Forgotten/Luna's Howl users having to collect those Rise of Iron wolf medallions to activate Magnificent Howl. Again nope... As Darkside mentions the remnant collection should be replaced with either an action such as reloading like Ace must do to gain say 4 shots with increased DOT and Damage and refreshes upon reloading after a kill (I picked 4 as the remnant collection currently returns 4 bullets into your magazine) or another possibility make it like Not Forgotten/Luna's Howl where landing consecutive shots increases your DOT with each shot landed on a Guardian (doesn't need to be precision shots). Start at 4 stacks of 2 damage as it is currently for the first shot, then stacks of 3 damage for the second consecutive landed shot, capping out at 4 stacks of 4 for the fourth landed shot. That equates to 36 total burn damage for 3 landed shots and should in tern reset if you miss a shot. This change would make it so it's still a 2 head shot, and 1 body shot kill after a 3 shot burn at 68+68+43 (standard shot damage)+36 DOT = 215. Finally the overall archetype Thorn sits in isn't that great in my opinion it would fare much better as a 140rpm handcannon as realistically you can't deal optimal rpm damage due to the next point, the recoil. Statistically wise the recoil is 100 which should equate to perfect vertical but as we all know Thorn pulls to the right forcing you to correct to the left. Having to correct that affects your ability to maintain that 150rpm pace consistently. All in all, for such an iconic weapon both in the Lore and in the hearts of the Destiny community it's frustrating to see where Thorn sits right now. There's a lot of things that I'd love to see changed on the weapon to help it live up to its infamous purpose of literally slaying Guardians. And no I'm not calling for any nerfs just to make Thorn better, I'd much rather Bungie take the time to independently tune Thorn properly to make it a very competitive PvP weapon that can hold its ground against guns like Ace or Not Forgotten, or Luna's Howl because of the Guardian killing notoriety of the weapon. I don't know... these are just my random fleeting thoughts in conjunction with Darkside's video. -Aozaki