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3/7/2019 11:10:48 PM
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Post is accurate more or less until you blame sbmm removal (which saved this game from the brink) as a reason why people are leaving a game with absolutely nothing to do. Then you shot yourself in the foot
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  • actually giving the game for free away across all platforms and the release of forsaken saved destiny not removal off sbmm. Lord have mercy on you.

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  • That literally happened for PC - which had the lowest population and didnt pick up and the dlc was still $ You're absolutely delusional if you dont think sbmm removal helped pull many players back. End of story

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  • I thought the [b][i]base[/i][/b] game with no DLCs was only given away on PC. Which has the smallest playerbase out of the three platforms the game's available on. Though I could see them doing that on PS, since that's the partnered/supported platform. It definitely hasn't happened on Xbox though. There've been sales here and there, but the game has never been free on Xbox to my knowledge.

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  • Edited by d3benway: 3/7/2019 11:47:51 PM
    Crucible numbers the week before the new “DLC” or whatever we want to call it were down like 100k on this time last year. Even with the usual bump for a new season yesterday was still 10k lower than the daily average for March 2018. You’re kidding yourself if you think pulling SBMM had a positive impact on this game’s PvP overall ... unless your definition of success is letting a small slice of the player base artificially buff their KD.

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  • It 100% pulled players back, the game was dead before they dropped warmind and by pulling the cancer known as sbmm many people jumped into pvp Youd have to shut your eyes and ears for the entire warmind expansion if you think remving sbmm out of a single playlist didnt bring back the types of players who enjoy that and was a big part in saving this game

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  • Pulling sbmm changes the game for what, the top 20-30%. I know it pleased a few top streamers and top players, but it also made the game worse for everyone at the bottom. Warmind is when good changes started. I think it brought people back on its own. They change the meta a bit too. For me it was seeing a change of direction and the roadmap that brought me back. Less about sbmm.

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  • [quote]Pulling sbmm changes the game for what, the top 20-30%.[/quote]Top 50% [quote]I know it pleased a few top streamers and top players, but it also made the game worse for everyone at the bottom. Warmind is when good changes started. I think it brought people back on its own. They change the meta a bit too. For me it was seeing a change of direction and the roadmap that brought me back. Less about sbmm.[/quote]Ok that's you, for many sbmm in every single playlist was choking the games life, theres no reason we shouldn't have some with and some without and thats exactly what we have and theres nothing wrong with that

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  • Except, no one is playing it. Numbers are heading to CoO again.

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  • [quote]Except, no one is playing it. Numbers are heading to CoO again.[/quote] No no one is playing pvp due to the meta weapons right now and no new maps. People who can’t compete and get pinnacle weapons don’t want to play this meta. If it changes to be friendlier to a broader pvp base than more people will play. Don’t know why people complain about the meta though. Nothing new.

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  • And the reason for that has zero to do with sbmm vs no sbmm And everything to do with the stale boring pve state and lack of any update, lack of response to criticism and quality of life changes outside "I've passed this along" and how little this season of the drifter added with no real changes coming for months and another slog through dreaming city trash for another 50 points. No thanks

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  • Its been stale and slowly dropping going back to mid December. About 12-15 days after the drop of BA. Most top players are playing other games, so they arent even here to enjoy a system set up to feed them ez matches.

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  • Yes game is in a big lull with nothing to do so people are on other things Also the system is not set up to give anyone "easy matches" you are matched vs everyone who's searching qp, that could mean an easy match, that could mean even sweatier players or that could mean a close game, it's all random and fair in that way It also incentivizes getting better - the more you improve the more often you'll be at the top, rather then sbmm which if were being honest removes that incentive - there is zero reason to try to get better in an unranked playlist if the competition just improves as well, you may as well sit where you're at in that case. Imo incentivizing getting better is a only a good thing

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  • Its still dead maybe all-time low type dead. The inflation you're seeing is all "got the game free " people.

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  • [quote]Youd have to shut your eyes and ears for the entire warmind expansion if you think remving sbmm out of a single playlist didnt bring back the types of players who enjoy that and was a big part in saving this game[/quote] Fact check: numbers are way worse than this time last year. Far from being “saved”, it’s starting to look like a terminal decline. I mean yeah, maybe pulling SBMM did and does appeal to a certain “type” of player, but the facts would strongly suggest that it drove away a whole lot of others.

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  • No, dropping barely any content in an updates, not responding or fixing criticism and beyond long waits for any changes are making people walk Dont confuse that with pvp

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  • There’s no evidence to correlate the decline in numbers to matchmaking as you’re talking about a large time frame, there are too many variables to assert CBMM as the prevailing factor for population decline. However, you [i]can[/i] see a direct causality in PvP numbers going up directly after it was changed to CBMM. Also I fail to see how someone’s KD is “artificially” being buffed since they are playing other players and beating them accordingly, just because they aren’t playing skill matched players doesn’t mean their KDs aren’t a representation of skill. In fact if anything it’s truer representation since it reflects a KD against the entire player base, reflecting their skill against the entire player pool instead of a select few.

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  • Edited by d3benway: 3/8/2019 1:46:51 AM
    [quote]However, you [i]can[/i] see a direct causality in PvP numbers going up directly after it was changed to CBMM. [/quote] No, you can’t. They changed it about a month before Forsaken, there are a whole bunch of other causal factors in play right at that time, not least a marketing blitz in advance of a whole “new, improved” Destiny, and other dramatic changes to load out and mechanics. Correlation, maybe. But what we can say is that the Crucible population is lower this year than at an equivalent point of the release schedule last year. We can also say that the ratio of PvE (which is pretty much level with last year, including the dramatic downward trend) to PvP players is also lower, which would suggest that fewer of those who are playing are engaging as much with Crucible. It’s possible that this is down to Gambit splitting the player base, but you would have to read that fact alongside all the complaints about matchmaking, stomps and pinnacle weapons as indicating that SBMM is a factor. And yes, if you go from playing others at around your own level to playing a lot more people at a lower level - as is the case for anyone from the upper-mid tier of the player base upwards - that is an artificial buff, the increase depends on the rules of the game being changed, independently of any improvement in personal skill or efficiency.

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  • [quote][quote]However, you [i]can[/i] see a direct causality in PvP numbers going up directly after it was changed to CBMM. [/quote] No, you can’t. They changed it about a month before Forsaken,[/quote]Not true at all, it was changed at warmind release [quote]But what we can say is that the Crucible population is lower this year than at an equivalent point of the release schedule last year. We can also say that the ratio of PvE (which is pretty much level with last year, including the dramatic downward trend) to PvP players is also lower, which would suggest that fewer of those who are playing are engaging as much with Crucible. It’s possible that this is down to Gambit splitting the player base, but you would have to read that fact alongside all the complaints about matchmaking, stomps and pinnacle weapons as indicating that SBMM is a factor.[/quote]1. PvP population is still higher now in the second year then it was back in curse - showing that sbmm was not the draw power for players any more then cbmm is - less so actually. 2. Players are walking away on all sides - sols just said above more players were in pvp then pve yesterday....content is dead, it has nothing to do with sbmm - his post is pretty accurate outside that but him constantly trying to push his self protection narrative using unrelated stats only diminishes any real points he had [quote]And yes, if you go from playing others at around your own level to playing a lot more people at a lower level - as is the case for anyone from the upper-mid tier of the player base upwards - that is an artificial buff, the increase depends on the rules of the game being changed, independently of any improvement in personal skill or efficiency.[/quote] Doesnt change the fact that without sbmm players real stats are factored, they play vs everyone and see where they fall out, while sbmm is "everyones a winner" mentality showing lower tier players as being better then they actually are and higher tier worse then they actually are.

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  • Edited by d3benway: 3/8/2019 4:32:59 PM
    [quote]Not true at all, it was changed at warmind release[/quote] No, Warmind released in May, the “bug” that killed off sbmm came with [url=https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/247350089]Update 1.2.3[/url] released in late July, Forsaken released in early September, at around the same time that the game was given away for free on PS Plus. Trust me, I remember clearly. [quote] 1. PvP population is still higher now in the second year then it was back in curse - showing that sbmm was not the draw power for players any more then cbmm is - less so actually.[/quote] It actually isn’t though. There was a rough average of 300k daily Crucible players for February 2018, every day I checked in late February was at around 225-250k, with one day at around 158k which even surprised me. More like that removing SBMM is not a draw factor, but the exact opposite. [quote]2. Players are walking away on all sides - sols just said above more players were in pvp then pve yesterday....content is dead, it has nothing to do with sbmm - his post is pretty accurate outside that but him constantly trying to push his self protection narrative using unrelated stats only diminishes any real points he had[/quote] Agree with most of this, it’s difficult to isolate one factor in a game that’s floundering at least as badly as it was in Y1, if not worse. Except the “self protection narrative” bit obviously - seems to me that the main “self protection narrative” at this point is from the people who are trying to ensure that their overall degree of difficulty isn’t increased.... [quote]Doesnt change the fact that without sbmm players real stats are factored, they play vs everyone and see where they fall out, while sbmm is "everyones a winner" mentality showing lower tier players as being better then they actually are and higher tier worse then they actually are.[/quote] ... so maybe it’s best instead to step back and ask yourself whether it’s more important that the game provides a fun experience such that people want to keep playing, or that KD score reflects a hierarchy in the player base as a whole. I’d have thought the answer to that should be obvious, I don’t get how anyone thinks the current situation where unbalanced blowouts are the norm rather than the exception is really enjoyable.

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  • [quote]No, Warmind released in May, the “bug” that killed off sbmm came with [url=https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/247350089]Update 1.2.3[/url] released in late July, Forsaken released in early September, at around the same time that the game was given away for free on PS Plus. Trust me, I remember clearly.[/quote]While I dont remember exactly just because bungie acknowledge the issue doesnt mean it wasnt present before - we both I think know how long it takes bungie to do anything not related to eververse [quote]It actually isn’t though. There was a rough average of 300k daily Crucible players for February 2018, every day I checked in late February was at around 225-250k, with one day at around 158k which even surprised me. More like that removing SBMM is not a draw factor, but the exact opposite.[/quote]I recall Y1 being at 200K most days, with tons of people complaining left and right about d2 was dead especially during coo. Removing sbmm definitely pulled people back, weather it drove some away? Maybe, but they had options on which playlist to run and I think most who hate CBMM are generally pve players anyway - the core pvp group for the most part prefer a system where getting better is an incentive. [quote]Agree with most of this, it’s difficult to isolate one factor in a game that’s floundering at least as badly as it was in Y1, if not worse. Except the “self protection narrative” bit obviously - seems to me that the main “self protection narrative” at this point is from the people who are trying to ensure that their overall degree of difficulty isn’t increased....[/quote]Again people who like the current system are not for protecting anyone - they are playing all tiers evenly, that includes thier peers and even better players, they are open to playing everyones the current system caters to no one because it's a mash of every single player searching. [quote]... so maybe it’s best instead to step back and ask yourself whether it’s more important that the game provides a fun experience such that people want to keep playing, or that KD score reflects a hierarchy in the player base as a whole. I’d have thought the answer to that should be obvious, I don’t get how anyone thinks the current situation where unbalanced blowouts are the norm rather than the exception is really enjoyable.[/quote]1. Incentivizing becoming a better player is not a bad thing. 2. Just like how someone who purchased the game is not entitled to raid rewards for doing nothing they are also not entitled doing good in pvp without effort, they have the same exact chance to stomp the other team as that team has of stomping them - when every player has the same armor/damage/etc and can think and outsmart the contest is decided fairly, the fun part is up to the player, I know someone who uses nothing but last word/sidearms cus he likes the cowboy feel, he dies alot at range but he doesnt mind cause hes having fun, if a players only form of fun is winning/killing a bunch they'll have to compete for it - either vs thier peers in literally every playlist but one or vs the global base in qp Really dont understand one bit why we shouldn't have at least 1 playlist dedicated to everyone playing everyone, its not like giving players options is a bad thing 3. Blowouts are not the norm unless you're looking at a full teams stats, outside that I've checked sols games in the past and generally it was pretty even - remember that the higher the tier of player the less games they're in causing less blowouts (also what exactly is wrong with a blowout? It means one team did significantly better then the other - that should be props to them - back when I played other games people congratulated each other for playing hard, not anymore I guess.)

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  • [quote]While I dont remember exactly just because bungie acknowledge the issue doesnt mean it wasnt present before - we both I think know how long it takes bungie to do anything not related to eververse[/quote] Well, I remember clearly playing quickplay for my milestone on reset day in late July and thinking “how come every game turned into a sweaty shitfest, and why is there all of a sudden a 50+ spread for or against in 80% of my matches?” The mode went to shit literally overnight - if they were previous tweaks or changes to matchmaking they didn’t affect my enjoyment, but this did. Anyway, you’re obviously entitled to your view, but all the basic fact is that most people won’t play Crucible unless it’s fun ... particularly given that quickplay seems like the obvious “fun, casual mode” (some people use this as an argument against it having SBMM lol, but I digress). Given how grossly unbalanced the current matchmaking system is, it stands to reason that people at the sharp end aren’t going to hang around to get farmed, because that’s just no fun unless you’re some kind of masochist. And it’s looking like the facts bear this out.

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  • Look if playing against everyone including the best and worst is not something you enjoy by all means search any other playlist. There MUST be at least 1 place where sbmm is NOT the only form of pvp. Giving players options is how a good game runs, if there were no playlists with sbmm id get where youre coming from but simply there are and many people enjoy CBMM. For you and other pro-sbmm players qp isnt fun, but many prefer it this way as well, theyve got the same right to preference you do, seeing as every other playlist caters to the lower tiers qp must remain as is. Also again, numbers are down due to pve being another repeated dreaming city grind and being in a stale lull. Not due to sbmm in pvp, otherwise the game would have died when the glitch originally came out instead of only growing and then getting huge again in forsaken

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  • I mean, I obviously wouldn’t personally object to an SBMM and non-SBMM playlist, but at the moment there’s no effective matchmaking outside Iron Banner, but even there level advantages are a factor. Btw, re “what’s wrong with blowouts” some of the best advice I’ve ever gotten is if you’re the smartest guy in the room, you’re in the wrong room. If skilled players want to “play hard”, there’s obviously a place for that - against each other. Like you hardly expect that guys who play a couple of hours a week should be thanking and congratulating a Not Forgotten stack for handing them a 95-12 drubbing ... or that the sweaties really should be feeling pleased with themselves about this either.

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  • 1. You have effective sbmm matchmaking in the rotational, rumble and comp if you prefer that style. 2. "if your the smartest guy in the room" Doesnt work when we are all the same. Health and damage wise top tier are no different from bottom - so yes if a team of 6 players defeat another team of 6 players by blowing them out they made smart plays and played well, id congratulate them

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  • Crucible rank resets mess that up, and rumble is basically a different game to team matches. Right now there’s no option for a relaxed match or two after work or whatever, quickplay means sweating my balls off just to break even because either my teammates or the other side are busily racking up 3kd for the match. The difference is that some guys pour thousands of hours in to crucible, grind out all the best gear, “play hard”, and generally take it seriously, some just play a few hours a week for fun. Or used to. You’re not seriously trying to suggest it’s a level playing field? Like aside from everything else I just don’t get what’s in it for Super Hardcore Skillz Guyz to rack up facile wins against no thumbs blueberries.

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