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Destiny 2

Discuss all things Destiny 2.
Edited by Spawn: 1/18/2019 2:22:32 PM
18

The Dreams of Worms, Possibility of Common Ancestry, and The Nine Again

<OK OK, I know what you're thinking when you read this title... actually I don't. I'm no mindreader. Alright, let's move on. LONG AGO (actually like 4 months ago) I was a prominent figure in arguing that the Worm Gods are NOT Ahamkara or vice versa. While this statement continues to be true (from a certain point of view), I cannot deny their relation. Their use of the phrase "O ___ Mine/Ours". They both are Dark entities, but one seems to not care about the Dark or its intentions while the others are fanatical about it. I think that you can tell which is which. BUT SOMETHING STRUCK ME AS ODD. I'm a Nine Conspiracy Theorist, it leads me places deep in enemy lore and also allows me to make major mental jumps few are insane enough to think about. I've noticed that every Nine theory from the Grimoire Card, with the exception of 3, 7, and 9, have come true. 3 references that the Nine COULD BE ancient Leviathan Intelligences from the seas of Europa or the hydrocarbon pits of Titan. Then I noticed something else. 4 of the 9 theories relate to aspects of them. Like how they use a certain language or signal, or how the other two would ultimately reveal their plans if proven correct. The other 5 relate to species, like the aforementioned LI, Deep-Orbit Minds, Ghosts, Awoken, and Jovians. In the lore tab "Emissary", Orin seems to back this up by saying only five were in the Nine. Each member speaks differently, but there's only 5. So what's up with that? [quote]Then why are we afraid? We are Nine. 'Hah. Are you?' A R E W E '…' truth truth count the voices 'One, two, three, four, five. Haha.' They will see it our way, given time. We are the same.[/quote] This is where we move to Shuro Chi. In a version of the Pilgrimage patrol mission, she says this about the Ahamkara. [quote]I have heard it said that the Awoken brought the Ahamkara into this system — that we found them in the ruins of the planet that we carved into the base of the Dreaming City — but if you ask me, they came from the Nine.[/quote] That is particularly interesting. Let's entertain the idea. In the lore tab "Reextinction", the Nine are arguing over the Taking of Riven and the eggs by Oryx. One of them in particular seems more upset. [quote]SHE HAS RUINED EVERYTHING! Such blind arrogance— WE ARE LOST! h u r r y He will recruit them all if we do not act now W H A T C A N W E D O Done cannot be undone! Everything is lost! kill them where they creep and crawl let their bones whisper naught THE CHILDREN! t h e y a r e n o t o u r c h i l d r e n[/quote] So what if (THE CHILDREN!//WE ARE LOST!) is an Ahamkara? But would that be a Leviathan intelligence? Could be, they can shapeshift after all. But let's move... elsewhere. To other mentions of the word "Leviathan". Calus. His ship is named the Grand Leviathan. Let's see what he says about it. [quote]This Leviathan. This prison ship. I will remake it, as I have been remade. No longer will it represent a mythical beast from the dreams of worms. It will serve as an icon for my newfound gluttony.[/quote] Right... what are the "Dreams of Worms"? Funny story for you... [quote]Texts about… well, theorizing about the dark. So little is written, save for that which was recorded from the dreams of worms.[/quote] Did anyone ever mention how Calus knew of the Hive's rise to power? He mentioned it in the Collector's Edition booklet. He used the OXA Machine to view it. He knows of the Books of Sorrow. Is that what he calls the "Dreams of Worms"? Let's assume so in this case. That means the Grand Leviathan is INDEED related to the Leviathan of Fundament. By visuals only, as the GL is a ship while the LoF is essentially a prison warden on Light steroids. But still, it's an interesting thought. If we assume that the Leviathan of Fundament is the species that inspired the design for the prison ship, then are other "Leviathans" connected? Is this a secret ancient species? What if they are the "Leviathan Intelligences" mentioned in the Nine grimoire? If that's the case, and assuming the Ahamkara come from the Nine, are they directly related? Why else would they call Riven their children? The Awoken didn't create the Ahamkara, the dragons have been around since Harmony ages before the Collapse. So Ghosts, Jovians, and Warminds also cannot be responsible for this transgression. Did these Leviathans create the Ahamkara? It's a leap... sure, but there's a chance. Are the Ahamkara the only legacy of their species? What about that undersea Titan monster? It looks like a Worm but what if that WAS one of the LIs from the Nine? What if the LIs are responsible for the creation of both the Worms AND Ahamkara? Could that explain their ties to power or their battle for dominance over another? They aren't the same species, that is truth, but can they be of the same family? Are they battling for the same ecological niche? What drugs am I on? Will I ever find out. This whole thing was a lot easier to explain outloud. Am I losing my ability to write theories down in text? Can I only do this in sketches and conversation? Whatever, thoughts on my most recent rantings are appreciated.>

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  • The Anthem Anatheme. O' friend mine. I who previously used the name Last Ahamkara but now wear my true name give you this to look into.

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    • I am afflicted by a tedious repetition. I hope they don’t let us down.

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    • There’s some art from the collectors edition of Calais and some cabal overlooking a village being consumed by a giant land slug “Leviathian” and an artstation post of the person who made said art, and both basically say the Grand Leviathian was made with the idea that it was taking the image of that giant land slug from the cabal home world that would consume villages. There are also various motifs of this creature in the raid in the ornamentation of the ship, evidence that a real “leviathan” existed on the cabal homeworld and inspired this ship.So while it may be based of a creature on the cabal home world, it’s obviously interesting that there is another Leviathian in destiny, the one in fundament. That got me thinking, what’s the connection between all the giant entities. Is it possible that the creature on callus’s homeworld, the “Leviathian”, Ahamkara, and the worms gods are all related? They may be different evolutions and offshoots that stemmed from a similiar enormous celestial being. They are all very powerful, although with different powers. The worms found the darkness, the Ahamkara developed wish manipulation, the cabal Leviathian can eat cities, and the Fundement Leviathian we know little of but can assume it is of great power .They are all “leviathan” intelligences, as they are enormous of size (some can change size, bcreatureut all CAN be large) and of intelligence(unsure on the cabal creature) . I don’t know exactly what to make it said connections, but it’s some food for thought.

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    • This got me thinking and I remembered the 3 Queens from D1 lore. I can’t remember for sure what each represented, but I’m pretty sure that one was war/death and one was knowledge. Was the other hope? Perhaps the ahamkara and worms both represent parasitical entities in this context, where the worms preyed upon war and destruction and the ahamkara fed off of hope/wishes, with Oryx representing the queen of war and destruction (yes I realize there are tangents that could take you to talking about his sisters instead). That left me thinking of who might represent the knowledge queen and whether there was an associated parasitical entity there. Mara Sov is pretty big on secrets, which you could translate to the power of knowledge. That could have her represent that Queen, and perhaps the radiolaria (vex) could represent the associated paracausal parasite.

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      • [spoiler]. I've been correlating information on the Ahamkara and the Hive worm parasites. Both display a peculiar ability to convert the host's intent into an ontomorphic, reality-altering effect. Both use similar language in their appeal to the host. I don't think they're the same species, however. The Hive worms spawn large numbers of young from relatively few adults, always display the same physical form, and live in communal groups. The Ahamkara are solitary, elusive, and seem to alter form to suit (or confuse) expectations. The shared syntax "o ___ mine" may be the key—it seems to be a shibboleth used to invoke an ontomorphic effect, placing the target in a cage of "o" (activational, specific, appealing, and naming) and "mine" (defining ownership and subordination). Ahamkara and worm may have evolved separately to exploit this effect, just as many species independently evolve eyes. This might place them in competition for the same ecological niche. I would expect a rivalry or antipathy between them.[/spoiler]

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      • Amidst all the Nerf This Buff That and the weak-water Lore topics it's always refreshing to find something like this. Ahamkara = the Nine? Fascinating!

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      • The lore card talking about the eggs only now makes me realize really how big of a threat Oryx was. Sure, he was coming for revenge of his son, but he had a weapon that could wipe out fleets, he has destroyed planets and civilizations for centuries, he controlled an entire army that was shaped by the Deep itself, AND he was about to recruit 40 more Ahamkara into his army. The Nine were also concerned about his development in the story as well. Anyways, I wouldn’t say it’s too much of a leap to say the wish dragons came from the Fundament. To me, they kind of seem like a reverse-Leviathan for the Deep. Perhaps at one point they guarded the Deep along with the Leviathan, or the reverse — the Deep guarding the Sky, or the Worm Gods did that. Perhaps the Ahamkara lived in that fine line in between.

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        • I’m quite sure that the worms really were once krill. The twist (I bet) is that these worms formed a symbiosis with humans. There were humans who did make a deal for their survival with an alien force. We haven’t seen the cephalopods or moths yet.

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          • Edited by Of 1000 teeth: 1/18/2019 11:16:45 AM
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            Of 1000 teeth
            Of 1000 teeth

            “Only if it’s organic”. - old

            The Leviathan is the final life stage of an Ahamkara. Dragons created and nurtured by the planet minds to bring about a more infinite future. Calus thought it “fitting” to use the hollowed carcass of a Leviathan to consume each planet in the Sol system. Like using a child to eat his/her own parents. Each Gaiaform seeks to push all life into the stars. Mara Sov knows their schemes never end because they’re not intended to. Light will always reach out to other lights. But those damn worms, Eir and Yul fed on the corpse of a Leviathan. They fed on life and did not create new futures with their feast. And a moth will die sooner the closer it gets to the light. I’m ending Yul personally. Take the worm of the Witch Queen for yourself, Vex mind.

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            • Epic post

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            • Ive been trying to piece all this together as well. It always makes me smile when I start theorizing and then I see you've made a post about it. I think The Nine let the Ahamkara into our plane of existence. This is why they are their children but not really. Also when Sjur was "killed" they also killed Huginn and Muninn. Their bones were silent, implying that they know how to perma kill or banish the trancendant part of the Ahamkara back from whence it came. It all correlates. If I had to put it my two cents in about Worms and Ahamkara(I was on the side of same species, I was wrong T.T) I'd say they come from the same extra dimensional plane. They can both trancend death, use the language that reshapes reality and feed off of reality. I also don't really know what all of it means together. I hope Calus and Mara ally. I hope to meet another Worm soon (Ur? Maybe?).

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              • The Leviathan not being the only member of it's species would make sense, and if the Ahamkara originated from this species as did the Worms it might not only explain the similarities between the Worms and Ahamkara, the remarks from one of the Nine about children in relation to the Ahamkara but the fact that the Ahamkara seem to follow the Traveler, if the Books of Sorrow are anything to go by.

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                • Edited by doudoumisdoubles: 1/18/2019 8:35:35 PM
                  Interesting theory but isn't Calus' leviathan modeled after a creature that attacked and devoured cabal cities on their homeworld?I think I remember something like that being mentioned somewhere.

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                • Edited by Ari Bray: 1/18/2019 6:18:53 PM
                  The planet with 2 rings. Where one exists two, with all seeing eyes and all consuming teeth.

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                • I just have to upvote for the level of dedication.

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                • Epic post. Ty. I shall ponder my response! 👍

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                • I think the nine are a think-tank/alliance/organization. I believe part are an off-shoot of the awoken, but also ghosts, minds, and maybe an Ahamkara. Lets say they exist outside time in some extent, they may have culturally evolved past the concept of species. The "They are not our children" could mean "they are not from us" as in they weren't from our place of existence. All of these groups/individuals could have made their way and have been accepted into the Unknown Space. Our Guardians could be following into the same process of acceptance into this group through being Judged by the trials. If it was a Leviathan, it would have the ++ signs around its speaking. I believe there are some lore text with that in it from the nine - so you may find more evidence there. There's something I keep in mind when I think about the relationship of things in this game - specifically the Worms and Ahamkara. Its the lore text from the Mk 44 Standasides which metaphorically explains the traveler and its interactions with the universe. The gardener and the garden. Keeping that in mind, I see an ancient struggle between the worm and the bird. The worms hollowing out a tree, consuming it, reproducing, while the birds find holes, weaknesses in the bark and feed upon the worms. I kind of see this struggle hyper evolved into the Worms of the Deep and the Ahamkara of the Sky. The worms ever growing as they feed, but the Ahamkara against the deep philosophy by always changing shape. Keeping that struggle in mind, I think both the Ahamkara and the Worms speak similarly and have similar traits because they've evolved into a new competition niche. This is how creatures at this evolutionary point talk and interact. The Leviathan, we still don't know too much. They could be the third point - of light and dark/ dusk and dawn. If we look at a Leviathan as fish, they also feed on worms, but can also be prey to birds. The Leviathan could be a hyper-evolved form that symbolically represents society/humanity. Finding a balanced form between light and dark. Thriving and Surviving.

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                  • Wasn’t there something about the Leviathan (the ship) being based on creatures from the Cabals home-world that like, swallow whole cities? I can’t remember where I read that though.

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