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Edited by Lost Sols: 1/2/2019 2:32:09 AM
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I Played 196 Games and Over 33 Hours of Iron Banner and it Made Me Love Crucible Again for a Week

Edit: for those who can't read to the end- [spoiler]going to post this up top since there are people who can't read through the entire post before commenting. I included mercy statistics because despite how awesome the matchmaking and player engagements are in IB, the mode isn't perfect and the scoring and lockdown mechanic lead to too many mercies when one team can get an early triple-cap. Also, power matters in IB and QP games don't trigger a mercy at 75 points if the other team is under 40 for those digging at straws to protect your farming grounds 👍[/spoiler] It is now the day after Iron Banner and, as I did after the last IB, I’ve gone through the numbers and what a story they have to tell. I will start off by saying that I played a lot of Iron Banner; in fact I played a total of 196 games over the 7 days. At an average of about 10 minutes per game, that’s about 33 hours just in the actual games. That is really significant because I was tweeting the days before IB started that I was ready to uninstall the game, I was so pissed off and aggravated playing QuickPlay. So I have a lot of information here from both IB and QP to go over and it really gets to the heart of why IB was so fun and QP is so not fun. Unfortunately I only have statistics from 113 of the 196 games because guardian.gg stopped showing player ranking from games at some point Saturday night. So I have the numbers from the 113 games it did record, as well as my last 113 QuickPlay games. So let’s dive in! [b]Iron Banner (sbmm enabled)[/b] [quote]Games = 113 Players = 1370 (+14 over base 1356) Bronze = 181 (13.2%) Silver = 780 (56.9%) Gold = 384 (28%) Platinum = 25 (1.8%) Diamond = 0 Master = 0 Games with Platinum players = 20 (10%) [b]Team skill breakdowns[/b] Losing Teams: 98 Bronze, 430 Silver, 155 Gold, 15 Platinum Winning Teams: 83 Bronze, 350 Silver, 229 Gold, 10 Platinum Mercy Rate: 25.5%[/quote] [b]QuickPlay (sbmm disabled)[/b] [quote]Games = 113 Players = 1410 (+54 over base 1356) Bronze = 181 (12.8%) Silver = 829 (58.7%) Gold = 277 (19.6%) Platinum = 75 (5.3%) Diamond = 40 (2.8%) Master = 8 (0.6%) Total players Platinum thru Master = 123 (8.7%) Games with Platinum, Diamond and/or Master Players = 63 (55.7%) Games with Platinum, Diamond and/or Master on both teams = 18 (16%) Games with Platinum, Diamond and/or Master on one team = 45 (40%) [b]Team skill breakdowns[/b] Losing teams: 106 Bronze, 443 Silver, 122 Gold, 28 Platinum, 8 Diamond Winning teams: 75 bronze, 386 Silver, 155 Gold, 47 Platinum, 32 Diamond, 8 Master Mercy rate: 4.4% [/quote] Now this is where a lot of the arguments against sbmm fall apart. There is a common myth that because the top 6-10% (Platinum), 3% (Diamond) and 1% (Master) are such a small percentage of the player population, that we will very rarely see them in games. This has always been flawed for a number of reasons. First, they may only make up about 10-14% of the actual PvP player base, but they are on and playing more than everyone else and so they’re a higher percentage of who is actually on and playing at any given time. Secondly, there are 12 people in each match. With no skill considerations, it stands that the overall makeup of those lineups will ultimately reflect the full spectrum. Out of every 10 players in games, over the course of all our games, about 14% are going to end up being top 14%. So what you get is the numbers above. Platinum thru master might only be 8.7% of the players in those games, but they are in 55% of the games. That’s 1 out of every 1.79 games that I’m playing in QP where there is a top 10% player running the floor with opponents and 1 out of every 2.5 that it’s just one team with the ringer(s). It’s not fun for anyone on the losing ends and even when they’re on my team it sucks just picking up scraps against a team that has no chance while one of my teammates dumps 35-45 kills. So compare that to my Iron Banner experience with no Diamond or Master players and only having to face a Platinum tier 1 out of every 10 games. The difference is playing 3-4 games and being so pissed I want to uninstall the game, to playing 196 games over a week and having the most fun I’ve had playing Destiny PvP in 3 years. It also allowed me to run different loadouts and use double bows for a huge portion of the week since it wasn't all Luna's/NF/DRB/Wardcliff on the other team all week. It cannot be overstated how much skill in matchmaking benefits 90% of the player base, and the kicker is that it’s basically a wash for the Platinum tier. Their sbmm experience is going to look a lot like QP now, and even the Diamond and Master tier still play the lion’s share of their games against Bronze, Silver and Gold opponents, but they will face more teams with at least a player their skill and they will also face more fireteams and less solo players. Another false notion that is set forth over sbmm is that is forces players into 50/50 win-loss ratios. That’s not true. Winning and losing is still in the individual player’s control, the difference is that sbmm seeks to put each team’s odds of winning closer to 50/50. It’s never going to be exact and one team will always have a bit more of an advantage going in, either on skill or fireteam size, but I’d rather have my odds closer to 50/50 that a 10% or 90% chance of winning going in. Also to the ever repeated comments that sbmm causes lag, Out of over 2352 players in my 196 IB games, I saw about 6-8 that were laggy and only 3-4 that were really bad. I hope this continues to show how much skill in matchmaking is a wonderful thing for the overall health of the game and I really hope that Bungie put it back into QuickPlay. It’s a real shame that we never got to experience how fun D2 PvP could have been from just the return to 6v6 and the new sandbox. I’m actually dreading going back to QuickPlay and as much as I loved the game last week, I hope I don’t hate it again by the end of this one. Also, this isn’t to say that Iron Banner is perfect either and can’t still be improved upon. One out of every four games being a mercy is way too high. I don’t think removing the lockdown mechanic is the answer as it does give a uniqueness to IB, but it could definitely use some love. Maybe disabling lockdowns until both teams hit 25 or adjusting the score multipliers or cap times. I’m sure there is a solution that can lead to less early blowouts though. Here are links to previous posts and videos I’ve done on the topic if you’d like to hear more. Thank you. A Beginner’s Guide to Destiny PvP Matchmaking https://youtu.be/s6ilnUPwiPE A Deeper Dive Into Destiny 2 PvP Matchmaking https://youtu.be/4dqWoyy52Ho Last Iron Banner Blog Post https://lostsolsdestinyblog.tumblr.com/post/180254236110/iron-banner-by-the-numbers-and-a-deep-dive-into-d2
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#feedback #DTC

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  • Great analysis of the situation! I believe that your numbers line up with the premise that the SBMM is producing matches that people who share your temperament would enjoy. However, these numbers can’t prove the premise that all people who don’t like SBMM are lying, ill intentioned, bad people who want to bully other players. This type of rhetoric is not necessary to make a positive change for players in the crucible... almost everyone across the board isn’t happy with crucible matchmaking. I’de like to the discussion move into less “political” territory, with less shit throwing on either side(I’ll admit I’ve went sideways on the issue myself, but in my defense, I’m often attacked as an asshole for not supporting SBMM). Honestly my experience under both SBMM and CBMM as far as matches are concerned, has been roughly the same. Destiny matchmaking in general, seems to create tilted matches. You’re either stomping or being stomped, and I think that phenomenon suggests that problem is deeper than just SBMM/CBMM. This is my proposition, Bungie should add options like in Halo such as the ability to choose between SBMM, CBMM, Social playlists and fastest match que. This may not be the answer, but it would be a great start.

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    • Damn, what a shitstorm of a thread...

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    • Edited by Lord Kielron: 1/2/2019 1:42:22 AM
      I am probably not going to be the only one to say this, but look at the Mercy rates. If QP was as bad as being advertised, the Mercy rates would be much higher than the 4.4 you are showing. In fact IB is 1/4 of your matches are subject to the mercy rule, which doesn’t show higher skill, but rather more blowout games, which are the exact opposite of skill. Just pointing out a real interesting discrepancy in the data you are showing.

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      • Don’t bother talking sense, statistics and reality to the people who are just arguing to protect their farming grounds. They lie about their experiences with lag. They forget that everyone else plays this game too. They forget that we too, see how much lag there is during Iron Banner, which is extremely minimal if at all. But they keep lying to Bungie about lag and crying about their experience so they can continue to be the only ones populating quickplay other than people merely cringing their way through milestones. Crucible is dead and the numbers support it. Less than 20% of all time spent playing Destiny is in PvP according to Charlemagne. Why? Bungie listened to the top 10% of PvP players and made the game mode specifically to cater to them alone. So I say again. Don’t bother talking sense to these people. They are the enemy of the rest of the game’s population. They have targeted the weaker players and used Bungie to wage war on your ability to enjoy the game. Don’t bother trying to convince these people. They are entirely aware of what they are doing and sense cannot be talked into them. They are using calculated responses to influence Bungie and protect their fragile little egos from dealing with fair and balanced matches. Arguments against SBMM come from two places. First, people who lie about lag to influence Bungie. Second, people who lie about experiences to influence Bungie. No exceptions.

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        • Edited by pacificdune: 1/3/2019 5:09:34 PM
          “I played 196 games” You do realize that in your opening statement is the biggest reason why QP should not have SBMM. You really need to say no more. IB was fun, but the lag was much more than I had seen in a long time, and this was a limited time event drawing much more play than usual. Put the same matchmaking on a much smaller population such as what we have in QP and we are back to the bs we had in vanilla. If I scan the top 50 posts here the one thing I do not see is complaints about lag, and uneducated / annoying requests for “dedicated servers”. Compare that to when we had SBMM in QP.

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          • Gonna dig in later

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          • Mercy rates... Lockdown mechanics aren’t an excuse. A triple cap isn’t an instant mercy. Lag... You are beyond average. The whole argument is that lag will be more common especially the better you are, which you’re bad so you don’t count. You experienced “balanced” matches. Well according to the forums, everyone else, including me experienced more lag. Guess what’s more annoying than getting stomped? Lag... it always has been and always will be... SBMM is what the casuals think would make it better. The hypocrisy of saying elites want an easy time AND not seeing how THAT is the catalyst to their whole argument is hilarious. Crucible needs a balance patch, the option to pick which game modes were loading up, and more incentive to grind it out. If all of these are implemented and there is still a problem THEN you should consider SBMM. I just don’t see how Bungie could take the [b][i][u]biased[/u][/i][/b] opinion of some casuals over the opinion “streamers and youtubers” who actually play the game modes enough to know what the issues are.

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            • Edited by pacificdune: 1/3/2019 5:02:14 AM
              I played about 50 games, running stacked on about half of the matches, winning about 80% of my solo matches and 95% of my stacked matches. I will say that I had more fun in my solo play and thought it was a bit strange that I won most of the matches expecting it to be more 50/50. Regardless of any of that, QP is QP, and I still have great experiences in there, both solo and stacked. A big difference that I noticed is lag. In QP I never get any lag, but in IB it was very noticeable, even though it was a timed event which draws out many more players. The mismatched games give me a chance to test myself against better players. Regardless of any numbers that you put, QP is QP, and it does exactly that. I quick match against players of various skill levels with an effort to even the teams. It is great as it is. Please no SBMM. Hats off to Bungie for sticking to their guns here. I’ve gained lots of respect for them because of it.

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              • Edited by Richardfeton: 1/3/2019 4:31:51 AM
                Thats a long post, my only counter to everything you just wrote is, you rather play a video game thats laggy and frustrating over playing against random amount of skilled players that also grants a more stable game? Idk about you but I rather play a stable game with anyone in quick-play over a laggy game that runs at 30 frames per second. I don’t care if I win my games or lose them, I don’t care if my team is full of noobs or the other way around, I choose stability over games where everyone is lagging and going against lunas howl 24/7 because my level is higher than others. I don’t want to sweat in every match I have which is why destiny 2 sucked when it first came out, no one enjoyed it. Quickplay was competitive back then for me, my games were extremely laggy, the experience sucked.

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                • I found the Iron Bannner much more enjoyable than quickplay. Having sbmm is a better experience for all, although the higher tier players speak otherwise. All it comes down to for them is the ability to prey on the lesser skilled.

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                  • Ikr? That sbmm was freaking awesome... It felt so amazingly BALANCED. I miss IB. Kinda don’t see why we can’t have it all the time, I still love crucible but it really should happen

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                    • Edited by Haunter: 1/2/2019 6:56:54 PM
                      Still at it huh? Embarrassing, stop thinking all playlists will revolve around you, you've got 3/4 playlists with sbmm, if you really wanted "fair and balanced matches" you'd spend time there but we all know what you want - a protective bubble matchmaking where everyones a winner and everyone has a 1.0 across all playlists because 75% of the pvp modes isnt enough for the crybaby force - I've played halo and other shooters all my life and can truthfully say you sbmm forumites are a brand new group of the saddest lot I've ever seen, no other gaming community cries because they sometimes match good players, smh. Thankfully bungie recognizes that removing sbmm brought back around 600,000 players in warmind and dont really care what 50 players want in comparison to that, this community has fought off sbmm not once but twice now - it'll never happen but by all means keep uselessly petitioning. At the end of the day qp is designed to find the fastest possible match - meaning you have a chance to face anyone and everyone, if you aren't willing to do that there are other playlists, but you sure as hell wont be catered to because you are unwilling to battle whoever you match.

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                      • please analyze this match and tell me how I could be better. I know it is not on your preferred page but I have the match so that you can look it up. https://destinytracker.com/d2/pgcr/3377847485 elo of 2564 vs 1185 - and yes they were a 6 stack. your guardian page did not have rank numbers available.

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                      • Now it's back to regular QP, where my team of solos with an average ELO of 1157 gets matched against a 6 stack of Not Forgotten heroes with an average ELO of 1883. DestinyTracker says they had a 98% chance of winning... Yeah, that's going to make people want to keep playing this garbage.

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                        • Because of this nonsense, I "anti-sell" this game. I already paid for it, you got me, I'm screwed. Sure thing. But I tell all of my friends and family to never give Bungie a dime for anything. I show them how -blam!-ed matchmaking is, and they ask, "why would it put a 3 and a 2 and a 1 against 6 solo players instead of a 3 and 3 solos against a 2 and 4 solos?" My only answer is: "Because Bungie hates their players and wants us to quit." There is no other logical answer. They have our money, now they want us to quit so we don't use up server resources. Instead of refuting these statements, Bungie employees like deleting them. Because they [b]can't[/b] refute them, or disprove them. They are true.

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                          • Edited by kellygreen2: 1/2/2019 12:50:05 PM
                            Well done. Excellent breakdown of the Pareto Principle at work. ...and why connection-based matchmaking exploits the average player for the benefit of the "best" players. Its also a very good breakdown of why I've walked away from the Crucible and haven't looked back. The Triple-cap lockdown mechanic in Iron Banner (OMG, a 25% Mercy rate?!?!?!)....and being served up to the top players in QP.

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                            • Well done, and thank you. Explains why I hate Quickplay and truly enjoy Iron Banner. I actually feel that Quickplay exists purely so streamers can broadcast their feats against less skilled players, and Bungie is okay with the stomping because it promotes their game. I am looking forward to playing new Destiny 2 PVE content, and Iron Banner, in between playing Anthem.

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                            • 0 upvotes. Id say the majority of the people you tried to reach with this, do not agree. Most of us remeber the lagfest in d1

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                            • So I am curious if you ran all your games solo or ran with a stack, possibly a combination of both? What was your overall record? 196 is a lot of games. I played 209 games and went 98-111. I might have played 10 at most with someone else and none more than 4 in the stack. I would say that the experience wasn't horrible but I was chasing after triumphs - IB and general Crucible. I would say that the biggest disappointment was that I never got the 20 kills without a loss, for that matter looking back, I didn't really see anyone else get it either. Bigger than that I didn't get the 7 kills without a loss, I have a clanmate that got it and not seeing all the records yet, would bet 5 players I played with or against got it in the 209 games I was a part of. I have never gotten the 7th column metal, there was one for IB I didn't get it either - based on sbmm, this was my best shot. The most I got was 5 and that was by pure luck, got 2 with a grenade (I think) and then used nova warp. Upon the ending of the match got 3 quick kills taking the total to 5. Don't know if there would have been the opportunity to get it had the match continued but it is what it is. But where I end - according to Tracker I am a platinum player - that's right a 98-111 losing record in season 5 and I am platinum - can you explain that to me please? I don't know what Guardian.gg has me as nor do I know how to figure it out.

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                              • Do you ever stop crying like a bitch about something that happens in every game? Jesus

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                              • I don't like Crucible all that much, but I did play Iron Banner this time... ...and it was actually fun. I usually average about 0.6 KDA in QP, now I was going positive in nearly every game. Now I know why, thanks.

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                                • Had a ton of fun in iron banner.

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                                • Good data man. I know how many games you played so I can only hope Bungie takes note of this. The ONLY time I enjoy Crucible is IB.. and these numbers are a big reason why.

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                                  • Thanks for this post- very interesting. I've also found Quickplay to be hair-pulling-out terrible and unfun. As I've tried to play crucible less and less, I haven't played a single game of Iron Banner I think the past three times.

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                                    • Agreed. I enjoyed IB this past week much more than any other PvP since Forsaken dropped. While the knuckleheads cling to the mercy rate it is pretty obvious the mechanic of IB is kind of broken. I was queuing up with my buddy and the match would get called and I kept saying "why is he calling it?" Score was 70 to 40-ish and we were capping two zones when he called it. This happened a few times actually so I think the lock down mechanic needs adjusting. We cap those zones and go on a mini terror and the come back would be well on it's way. Anyway. Regardless of the mercies I still had more fun and even more so after I realized the mechanic is kind of broken and dumb.

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                                    • I thought IB matchmaking was good, on the whole. I always had to try, but even in matches where I lost, I never felt insanely outclassed or like I had no chance. For the long-term health of the game, this is the feeling that PvP should strive to instill in players.

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