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4/20/2018 1:47:02 AM
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What Destiny could learn from Magic: The Gathering

Watching Bungie struggle to "balance" the PVP side of their game, only to end up pissing everybody off, has seemed strangely familiar... but I couldn't put my finger on it. Today, it hit me. Back in the mid-90's, I got introduced by a friend to this new type of card game that had recently come out: Magic The Gathering. This was a first-of-its-kind game where you bought packs of random cards (or loose ones from your game shop), and made your own balanced deck with what was available. You'd build a deck based on a theme, or idea, or even just the most powerful thing you lucked out in buying, then tested it out, and tinkered as necessary. It was brilliant! We had gotten into it when the main set being sold was Revised (Third Edition, for all intents and purposes), and between the expansions The Dark and Fallen Empires. Now, the original sets of cards (Alpha/Beta, then Unlimited) had some cards the developers thought were game-breaking, because they provided a slight advantage to kids willing to shell out hundreds of dollars for boxes of booster packs. So things like Moxes and Black Lotuses were removed. Then Fourth Edition came out, and they decided things like Dual Lands and Demonic Tutor were too powerful under the new meta, so those got the axe too. And things were no better on the expansion side either, as things got more and more watered down, more and more tame, lest they make some player too powerful. By the time Alliances came out, and before Fifth Edition, I had quit the game. The only way I can describe it to this community is thus: imagine if you started the game getting rares and exotics, and as time went on and you got more powerful you THEN started getting blues, then greens, then nothing but whites. The entire Homelands expansion of Magic was nothing but whites. So imagine my surprise 15-years later when I pick up an IOS version of Magic: The Gathering just for nostalgia's sake, and I see that the game designers apparently had a wake-up call, and took the game in the OPPOSITE direction! Those early first-edition cards were removed because they gave you one extra resource point early in the opening stages of the game, but now suddenly there were cards that let you win automatically if you played them! Just boom, I win! And it was like that all across the rarity levels and colors you could play from, cards that seriously upset the balance, and made you have to think fast or lose, learn defense or lose, etc.... Just ungodly powerful spells and creatures all over the place! And you know what? IT WAS FUN!!! So fun in fact that I picked up other IOS versions of the game, just to see what else was new. Bungie could learn from this. They sacrificed fun on the Altar of Balance, and there was no reason for it. There are two ways to balance: we could all run around with single-shot Nerf guns (the way they have it now)... OR, you could give everybody Gjallahorns with Icebreakers duck-taped on top that shoot Nova Bombs on rapid fire. Put some speed in our Guardian Gatorade. We'd all be on the same playing field, only now we'd be having... what's that word again? Oh yeah... FUN! That's what Wizards of the Coast did with Magic, and it's what seems to have saved the property some 20+ years after I gave up on it.
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  • Not exactly the first kind, Yu-Gi-Oh came out before it xP

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    • Destiny could learn from Space Invaders

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      • It's all about yu gi oh

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        • Is this Holtzman / Patrick Casey in incognito? He’s a big Magic fan!

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        • Icy Manipulator was a card that was absurdly OP when it first came out. It was an Artifact that cost like 3-4 Colorless, Tap a Colorless Mana to Tap any Land, Creature or Artifact on either side, No effects are Generated. Later the Card got nerfed to where you have to Tap 1 Colorless and Icy Manipulator itself to use it. Lost my train of thought, forgot if this is relevant to the post. Just got lost in the Magic 😉

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        • I picture you in your daily life wearing a wizard hat and sporting a handlebar mustache.

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          • I bet you get all the Magic groupies

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          • Someone tried to introduce it to me late in high-school like 2008'ish. He used a Green deck, and I'm not sure what series, block, or expansion it came from, but basically the whole thing was based around summoning an ass ton of Squirrels. At the time I was already pretty solidly invested in Yugioh and couldn't really adapt to Magic. I recently got into the game with the Kaladesh block. I have always absolutely loved "magic technology" concepts, and the Kaladesh block is all about that, so the sheer aesthetic got me. Currently still collecting more cards to put together. Thinking a mono-blue deck with it is going to be pretty damn fun. I wasn't aware of that history with Magic. Honestly, the degree of customization, planning, and strategy that goes into building a deck would probably feel pretty awesome in Destiny with classes and weapons.

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            • They have a version of M:tg on Xbox that’s decent. Free too, IIRC (haven’t played it in a while).

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            • Don’t forget the cards that allow you to skip your opponents turn and then cards that pretty much say I hit you you take damage say goodbye to your deck as it’s gone

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            • [i]"What Destiny could learn from Magic: The Gathering"[/i] WotC has progressively ruined Magic. Too late for Bungie to learn this, I guess... Additionally, unlike my D1 vault, I can access my Magic collection at will.

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            • pre-release this weekend if you've got a game shop near by.

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              • I loved magic, and had a shit load of cards. I ended up getting rid of the first batch to come back to them a few years later and the new mechanics were mental and nullified everything I knew about the game from before. Stuff like trample just squashed all my old techniques haha. I had sold all my cards a few years ago but still have some great memories mostly getting trashed but it was good.

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                • Interesting lol. . [quote]you could give everybody Gjallahorns with Icebreakers duck-taped on top that shoot Nova Bombs on rapid fire. [/quote] 😇

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                  • Back when I played Magic, socially with friends, what I loved about it was that although there were “The Rules”, they didn’t restrict cards from when you were just playing around with your mates. But if a card was dangerously overpowered or unbalanced, chances are it wouldn’t be Tournament Legal. So you could bring certain cards or decks to your casual or social sessions, but not into a Tournament. [b]That[/b] is a lesson I wish Destiny would learn from Magic. If something is massively overpowered in competitive play, don’t neuter it. Let it exist, as-is, in most PvE and (quickplay) PvP games. But ban them from being in the loadout for Competitive, Trials, IB and maybe even Prestige PvE activities. e.g. Colony in patrols, PEs, missions and Rumble? Hell yes. Colony in Trials? IB? Upcoming ranked play? Hell no!

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                    • People bitch about Eververse, but let me NOT tell you how much money I spent on Android's MTG Planeswalker gem-matching game. Like, a lot. I'd think nothing of dropping a hundo on MTs while drunk - this of course back when I had a two hour train commute every day and that game was all I did on it. Eventually they ruined that game, too. Each expansion had some boneheaded new mechanic that required you to buy a bunch of boneheaded new cards, which was fine like every six months, but then it was every 2- 3months, and that's just cray.

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                    • Edited by Technohydra: 4/20/2018 2:11:09 PM
                      I'll go in the opposite direction. i used to be an extremely dedicated player in the competitive arenas. I had multiple tournament wins, was a DCI certified judge on all levels that were available to me, and garnered an invite to the DCI Tour the first and second year that it was a thing; fortunately, my parents were a little more far-sighted than myself, and insisted that I dedicate myself to school, rather than card gaming. I played an extreme amount, spent hours working on new concepts and combos, did deck balancing for fun, and in general, made the game my life, as high schoolers are able to do. The reasoning behind it was very simple: there was a strategic and meta-game element to Magic that hadn't been present in anything else in my life until that point. Nothing was a one-and-done, do this to win thing, everything had to be combined and used carefully to get you to victory. And more than just knowing what you had in your deck, you had to know what else was available to your opponent, and try to think of their responses well in advance before you did something: in the Revised edition days, you never cast a clutch spell when your opponent had 2 islands untapped, lest they pull out a counterspell, and wreck your path to victory. For the longest times, the expansions focused heavily, not on making you more powerful, but on giving you extra points of strategy that you could employ. Yes, creatures kept getting bigger and bigger at the high end, but by an large, big creatures were also big resource drain and huge targets for direct damage and bury effects. And there were some junky expansions: Fallen Empire sucked, with it's focus on white weenie hoards and goblins (and the ever-stupid and insanely abused Goblin Bomb...). But by and large, the focus was in trying to give you new options, not make the wealthy or the lucky insanely more powerful than everyone else: a common deck, well built, could beat tournament-level designs in the hands of a good player. When things started to swing in the direction of massive power plays, I dropped the game like a rock. When someone, anyone, just because they got a good first-turn draw could unavoidably and uncounterably win the game at any point, it became no better than solitary. The focus shifted from actually being good at the game to simply manipulating the rules and system into allowing you to try for a slam dunk as soon as humanly possible. The elements of skill and strategy were lost. The expansions became more gimmicky; when Indestructable became a property, I just sold everything off and hung up the gloves. I got to watch dozens of games decided, not by who was better at building a deck and playing, but by who was able to pack more basically virtually unkillable artifact creatures into the deck. It became a break in the mechanics of the game that had stood for 10 years, and it seemed like a bad move. As time went on, it just became more and more gimmicky, power-festy, and in general, seemed like it was trying to keep peoples attention, rather than be a balanced, strategic, enjoyable affair. In addition, the shift in tournaments from Type1 (unresticted set rules) to type 1.5 and type 2 was a blantant attempt to force tournament players to keep buying more cards, rather than use the best of everything that was out there. Sorry to say, but in my opinion, Magic died right after the Urza's sets. The strategy focus left, and the luck of the draw became the king of the castle. It was a fun time, and I met a lot of great and even some famous folks while playing. I got to go visit Doug Schueler and Melissa Benson in their studios, and see artwork that was coming up in new sets. I sat tournament in Omaha against who was, at the time, my favorite author, and against who, now a days, is my new favorite. And if I get to one of their book signings, they still give me a hand shake hello as an old friend. But the game turned against itself, and it became something it was never designed to be. If this is the path of Destiny, I think it's in for even harder times, once the novelty wears off. TL:DR - ignore this if you don't want to here a nerd talk about card gaming.

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                      • Not how to get a date! That’s for sure!

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                        • Yep, an FPS could definitely learn from a CCG

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                        • Mmm Magic. I still have fun these days playing it casually with the wife, as I just never had the time or money to stay current. Still have an old school Slivers Deck with Duals. Not nearly as fast as it could be with Moxes and the like, but those cards were out of my price range then and they are way out these days.

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                          • Overall, agree with your point. Bungie needs to unbalance their PvP uber alles game if they want to make the game fun again. We need another Gjallarhorn to chase down, not a PL number.

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                          • I've been trying to get into Magic for ages now, but surprisingly, the few friends I know that give Magic a chance, magically all decided to move out of state :/ and I'm too shy to walk into the card shop like the noob I am with my noob deck to try and learn hahahaha

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                          • Magic and other Trading Card Games like it have much more potential variety in it's meta to combat overpowered combinations with. Destiny 2 has almost no variation because of lack of weapons and static rolls. Point is. In Magic if an overpowered combinatio comes to the top the meta instantly changes to try to deal with that. However in Destiny 2. If an overpowered combo comes to the top. It will stay to the top until 2 expansions later. Because bungie wont patch things and there is no oppertunities to change up the game with new takes on playstyles and weapons.

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                          • Holzman...is that you?

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                          • You can buy the cosplay props, not the cosplay people?

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                          • [quote]So imagine my surprise 15-years later when I pick up an IOS version of Magic: The Gathering just for nostalgia's sake, and I see that the game designers apparently had a wake-up call, and took the game in the OPPOSITE direction! Those early first-edition cards were removed because they gave you one extra resource point early in the opening stages of the game, but now suddenly there were cards that let you win automatically if you played them! Just boom, I win! And it was like that all across the rarity levels and colors you could play from, cards that seriously upset the balance, and made you have to think fast or lose, learn defense or lose, etc.... Just ungodly powerful spells and creatures all over the place! And you know what? IT WAS FUN!!! So fun in fact that I picked up other IOS versions of the game, just to see what else was new. Bungie could learn from this. They sacrificed fun on the Altar of Balance, and there was no reason for it. There are two ways to balance: we could all run around with single-shot Nerf guns (the way they have it now)... OR, you could give everybody Gjallahorns with Icebreakers duck-taped on top that shoot Nova Bombs on rapid fire. Put some speed in our Guardian Gatorade. We'd all be on the same playing field, only now we'd be having... what's that word again? Oh yeah... FUN! That's what Wizards of the Coast did with Magic, and it's what seems to have saved the property some 20+ years after I gave up on it.[/quote] Well, but you missed one important thing: as overpowered a bunch of Magic cards or combinations of them seem to be, they are still [i]balanced[/i]. You can counter pretty anything in Magic. You will need to know how, and possibly need certain cards for it, but there's still [i]balance[/i]. In fact, WoC are putting a lot of stress on the balance of the game, which is why the constantly are [url=https://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/rules-and-formats/banned-restricted]banning or restricting cards[/url] from their game.

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