[quote]You thought you knew what we wanted, you didn't.
But as a community we don't know what we want either, the forums and subreddits are contests of the most popular opinion for people angry and upset to bandwagon on, that makes us worse than those who made a mistake. [/quote]
It's the developer's job to separate what's important from what isn't. Destiny had a solid core base of dedicated players who loved the game they created even with it's flaws. Destiny 2 should have been an opportunity take feedback from that community and make improvements in order to attract an even wider audience.
Instead they got greedy and decided to completely overhaul the game in order to try to build a game for everyone, and ended up alienating most of their dedicated fans by doing so. A persistent online game (or MMO-lite as some call it) by definition requires a significant investment of time that just isn't compatible with the idea of casual gaming.
Bungie's mistake wasn't listening to their core community, most of us agree on 90% or more of what was good and bad about D1. Their mistake was listening to those who left the community in the first place, and trying to attract a group of gamers whose goals are incompatible with the type of game Destiny is.
Because of this D2 feels like a game with an identity crisis. Now too casual for most hardcore fans who like the RPG/Looter/MMO elements, and still too much of a time commitment for casual players who don't have 2+ hours/day they can devote to a persistent online game. So don't blame the community, we are the voice, Bungie is the filter and it's their job to decide who they are, what they want Destiny to be, and execute that vision.
By that measure Bungie failed that test in every regard.
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hate to say it but im a casual gamer. 400 odd hours in D2 on pc. i dont pvp, because of the community here. dont raid because it requires either everyone knowing what to do already (not noob friendly) or out of game comms which i wont use - why open myself up to some of the kind of ppl on her giving grief over discord because im on my first raid or not a pvp god like player? i play for enjoyment, and because unlike most of them i dont feel a game proves anything. i have seen people saying they wanted random rolls back, not having played D1 i feel they are really saying they want to grind a god roll weapon for an advantage in pvp. it strikes me maybe random rolls vanished FOR THAT PVP REASON. i certainly would not bother playing pvp (if i ever did) if i knew i didnt have a god roll weapon and thus no chance to win. the fun is not knowing who will win. (of course i can also accept losing without quitting to avoid it unlike the kind of people who want god rolls... but not if there is no chance to win at all.) and i have seen others say no god rolls 4th slot. and others say no dual primaries - which i dont see them as. the energy weapons do shield quicker than the kinetics to me. the kinetic is my primary and i resort to the energy when i am out of ammo and no safe place to reload, or want to drop a sheild down, or keep the pressure on so the shield doesnt go up again. but ppl call it dual primaries. i like it, the game still has the best gun play i have come across in 40 odd years of gaming. i think you also miss the new game syndrome. eververse and similar exist or mostly do, in most games because... in a few weeks another AAA title will be out. so its a pay to shortcut. ppl pay and shortcut to the 'endgame' as they see it (usually pvp) and then move on when the next game comes out... destiny should be more like World of Warcraft in its model. MAybe that means going back to D1 weapons system and tweaking it. or maybe it means keeping this one and altering it, or starting from scratch... but once its done, they need a subscriber model, with regular big expansions (not dlc) like WoW does. that would ensure an increasing mass of content for pve and should allow the creation of a pvp mode that people can dip into if like me and not some pretentious progamer wannabe, and the pvp K/D obsessors will have a competitive version hopefully.
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Agreed....to an extent. Bungie did make the mistake of **fighting** the core identity of the game, rather than embracing it. The problem wasn't listening to casuals. The problem was listening to a minority of a minority within the PVP community who want to play The Crucible as an e-sport. A goal which is simply not compatible with the game's identity as a loot-based game. So trying to turn the game into an e-sport friendly shooter, required stripping out, watering down, and mashing flat all the game's RPG elements and power-progression. Which results in a game that looks like a "casualized" RPG. When what it really had become was an over-engineered campaign shooter.
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I think we're mostly in agreement here. Bungie was trying to cast as wide a net as possible, and I'm sure in their mind they were thinking they could kill two birds with one stone by simplifying systems. By simplifying skill trees, giving players access to end game rewards via clan engrams without ever playing end-game content, and removing things like RNG loot they got rid of many of the "grindy" elements of the game that turn off casual players, and created more balance for the hardcore PvP esport crowd. So I think it was actually trying to accomplish both goals at once. The only thing that makes me scratch my head are some of the bizarre PvP choices they made to slow down game-play if they were attempting to go for an esports thing. The hardcore PvP crowd from D1 loved showing off lone wolf style play which just isn't as easy or fun with the slower team-shooting meta they created, which has chased away most of their YouTubers and Streamers. If they wanted to promote D2 as a competitive PvP shooter I would have thought they would have created better balance through the weapon system and fixed roll changes they made, but would have kept the same style of gameplay intact, just with a greater emphasis on skill over your luck in RNG loot. The only thing I can figure is maybe they decided to slow it down and make it more team based because of the success of team based shooters like Overwatch, but it still baffles me why they'd go that direction.