Calm down everyone, Bungie isn't a religion...its a product. Not worth getting violent over. All opinions are important even if they are factually incorrect. Look, Destiny 1 and 2 (same game, better gfx for 2) are INCREDIBLE games in many ways...nobody is disputing that. Im disputing Bungie's lack of ethical conduct, and to some extend yes the lack of proper QA. MMOs are tough because not all bugs can be found until a patch goes live. But I cant spend more than 10 seconds in The Farm because the servers are so overloaded that I get kicked by code:beaver constantly. Bungie had this exact same problem with D1 launch and Taken King launch...it was completely foreseeable. There's no excuse for making these same mistakes again and again, after 2 times the can't really be called mistakes. And D2 is a tiny game - of high quality absolutely - but tiny and very buggy...and the tiny part is by design. Bungie employs a planned obsolescence model to carve up a completed game into modules, and then can triple revenue by delivering incomplete game experiences. What if Telltale Games charged 49.99 or 59.99 per episode of The Walking Dead or Wolf Among us or GoT? You'd call them insane and greedy. My point. Agree or disagree, please keep the discussion topical - not personal, guys. Neither Bungie nor Windows nor iPhones are worth going to war with each other - these are products, not religions and not cornerstones of your identities (if they are for you, please seek professional help). Bungie and destiny have been grumbled as unethical or "paymium" game practice amongst the game development community, and devs are both in awe at what they've accomplished and have lost alot of respect for a company that used to be the jewel of game development industry. Its a complicated feeling because the gameplay is the most finely tuned 1st person shooter ever, beating H3 by a longshot - yet Bungie DOES exploit customers, has a horrid reputation for bugs and tends to solve gameplay issues with the most unimaginative methods (damage sponge increase solutions, etc). D1 for those of us who kept up, ended up costing 59.99 plus 39.99 for the season pass (with 3 small DLCs) plus another 49.99 for The Taken King expansion plus 39.99 for the tiny Rise of Iron. So we all spent nearly 200 bucks AT LEAST for an MMO that lasted about 4 years. And D1 wasnt really a complete game until TK. Even WoW DLCs dont cost that much per, and they're GINORMOUS updates. Bungie is pulling the same monetization 'con' as EA used to and as Apple still does...current Apple iOS version will sabatoge your iphone if you're 2 or 3 models behind, despite there being absolutely no technical reason a new iOS should tank your older iPhone. They've been pulling that schiesse since iPhone 4s. Planned obsolescence. Destiny 2, like Destiny 1, was shipped as an incomplete game intentionally...like D1 your starmap (Director screen) has placeholders for future content "planets". This content is already developed. Some of it was originally going to be part of the launch "episode" of D2 and they cut it to make the next DLCs seem bigger. And Ill bet you the season pass DLCs will just about double the campaign length. And then there will be more DLCs, at 49.99 to 59.99 each that will REALLY add content. Im actually ok with the size of D2 for 60 bucks. Im not upset about it by itself. But add in all the other BS, and yeah Im not looking forward to Bungie's wallet-games again. Im upset that B is repeating the same viceral, toxic pattern of problems and behaviour all over again - and in the end only the player loses out. BTW I am a game developer of over 15 years, mostly held Gameplay Designer, Producer and Art Director positions. I've shipped over 9 console titles, mostly 1st party titles for Nintendo but a few ports for Sony and one badass Steam title (IMO). I am aware of the complexities of an MMO and so bugginess of D2 gets the most forgiveness from me. Some bugs you just wont find until it goes live. That being said, I still cant play D2 because I keep getting booted for overloaded servers. That was 100% foreseeable and Bungie has no excuse for not having enough servers at this point. My sharpest criticism is towards Bungie is thier "maximum profit" focused development - Bungie is meticulously measuring the minimum amount of game they can deliver at full price without creating a customer revolt. D2 was underdelivered, period. The quality is stellar but there's very little content for a launch. Much less than D1 at launch, and D1 was a skeleton of a game at launch. The first DLC will be released VERY soon Im sure...just when people begjn to get upset. Keep the masses entranced, and they won't see you picking their pockets. So my main issue is how shareholder driven Destiny seems to be. Game development is a business, and games are a product made to make money - absolutely. But Bungie takes it too far, like EA used to with everything. Paymium model is not okay at full price...but if we're all willing to pay it en mass then we are proving to companies that they charge more for much less. The development community is somewhat split on Bungie circa Destiny era. There's a camp that admires D and its stellar quality of gameplay but is very disappointed in Bungie's unethical practices and how it could impact games moving forward. Then there's the camp that admires D and its stellar quality of gameplay and doesn't see anything wrong with breaking games up into too many overpriced DLCs. They believe that if the customers are willing to pay up for paygated content - even if that paygate is for 70% of the original launch game - that that's on them. If you can get away with it, its not wrong. I am of the former, obviously. And here Ive made my case why as best I can. Lots of words though. Sowwy.

Feeback [u]Sections[/u] -Before we Start -Identity -Micro transactions -DLC -Character Customization -Base Game content -Conclusion [b]Before We Start[/b] Destiny 2 is an improvement over vanilla Destiny 1, and it is enjoyable. But compared to Destiny 1 + Expansions, Destiny 2 lacks content and does not utilize it concept. It is an serviceable game NOT a great sequel. Before you say that “Destiny is simply a looter shooter” there are many other games that do the things Destiny attempted, but better, more effective, and start with more content available. The games I will most often reference are Borderlands 2, Diablo 3, Elder Scrolls, and Warframe. As all four games share many elements with Destiny. I want the readers to understand that the point of this post is to show that they should have higher expectations of the games they purchase. I will be going into detail about what is generally bad practice and what people should expect of a game of this scale. [b]Identity?[/b] Destiny still suffers from identity crisis. It cannot decide whether it is an RPG or a Single narrative driven game. We see them use RPG elements, that have real potential, only to be undercut by the short narrow plot that you have no ability to interact in. You might as well be Master Chief with powers who doesn’t talk. In fact most of the time your ghost talks for you. Bungie should follow through on what they wanted to do; a Co-Op Open World Action RPG. [b]Micro-Transactions[/b] Let’s be honest, the new microtransaction system affects gameplay. 1. The new Shader system is terrible and is clearly a cash grab. How does it affect gameplay? Simple. Shaders have become one-time use consumables to encourage real money purchases. 2. Having Loot Crates (Otherwise known as Bright Engrams) attached to microtransactions Ruins the hook of the game. You don’t have to earn them, you can just buy them. The core reward system of the game can be broken by using real money. That is bad design. It was not so long ago that the things Destiny are asking money for would simply just be in the game. Nothing would be withheld behind a paywall until the Expansion packs. F2P games like Warframe get to use microtransactions because they are F2P. That is how they support themselves. We already paid $60 for Destiny 2. They don’t need microtransactions. (BTW not even Diablo 3 uses microtransactions. You cannot buy Loot Crates and Colors are not one time use.) [b]DLC[/b] The way Bungie is going about DLCs is bad. Bungie Still holds back content so then they can dish it out as DLC a couple months after launch. After what happened with Destiny 1 NONE of us should be ok with this. It took Bungie about Three Years before they could make Destiny 1 feel like a whole game worth the $60 price tag. Yet I am hearing the same questions for Destiny 2 that I heard for Destiny 1. -Why are people saying Destiny 2 is simply the beginning? -Why do we have to wait for Bungie to bring more content? -Why isn’t the rest of the content in the game at launch? Destiny 2 should be a complete product at launch. The added content should not be what makes the game whole. The Game should have enough content to keep us busy to the point that a full fledged expansion does not come until half a year, or more, later. (For comparison, Skyrim did not have a DLC until a year later) [b]Character Customization [/b] 1. Character Creation I would think that when you take advantage of creating a sequel and implement a better character creation. Simply put we need more options when creating a character. We have very few faces to choose from and we can't customize facial features such as, the nose, ears, mouth, eyes, chin, cheekbones, eyebrows, etc. Also where are the beards? There's a character we meet in destiny 2 who has a beard, but we can’t get one? (Skyrim, from 6 years ago has a better character creation system and includes beards) 2. Gear For many players, how their character looks is very important to them. They want to create an identity. Like many other RPGs, MMOs, and Looters. Giving players free reign on character customization should be one of the top priorities. This is why the shader system that is currently in place is a poor design choice. It is restrictive. (In Warframe Fashion-Frame is Endgame) [b]Base Game[/b] There is a severe lack of content for a game that has Four planets, with open world environments, the player can visit. Bungie boasted about the larger environments in this sequel yet there are just as empty as the previous game. Each planet feels like a side quest rather than a world filled with characters and exploration. It feels like you are walking through movie sets rather than actual worlds. You are stuck running through empty maps waiting for something to shoot. There is no meaningful environmental interaction and the only thing to do is shoot stuff. Why are the worlds so empty? Where are the characters and activities? If there is going to be Open World environments then each planet should have loads of stuff to do that can keep you busy for hours. Each Planet should have the following. 1. Its own extensive storyline that also serves the main plot. 2. A Social Hub 3. Lots of NPCs to interact with. 4. An abundance of Side-Quests. 5. Exploration that rewards players 6. Lore 7. End Game. [u]Why an Extensive Storyline?[/u] Each world should be an investment. Each World represents a chapter in the story. Having a new environments for each major section of the game provides the sense of progression. They have beat an area and get to go somewhere NEW. Each Chapter should serve to expand upon and flesh out the universe while telling a story. [u]Why A Social Hub?[/u] If a player has to go back to the same social hub no matter what world they go to then they will feel like they are doing the same thing and nothing new is happening. Also it is disjointing from a writing perspective. Going back and forth between planets? Why? You want players to be invested in a location. [u]Why NPCs?[/u] Whether they are voiced or silent, Give the player another avenue to learn about the world while also establishing relationships with characters. No one cared about the Last City because they never had any opportunity to talk with them. Make the Ghost a character we can interact with. Who we can ask questions. Who we can develop a connection with. Have NPCs go about their business like in Elder Scroll games. A Routine of their day to day life. RPGs make sure that their worlds are Full of characters, both large and small, for players to interact with to make it feel alive. [u]NPCs: Wildlife [/u] Depending on the world, in most cases there should be wildlife. Especially on Earth.Destiny takes place almost 1000 years in the future. With nature taking over, and who knows what was done in the golden age, there should be plenty of fauna for players to see running around. Deer, Elk, Wild Dogs, Birds, maybe a bear, etc. The world is a big place, fill it. Just like NPCs, open world games feel empty without wildlife. [u]Why Side Quests?[/u] Adding a plethora of side quests to the various NPCs gives the players reasons to explore the environments. They serve as a great way to flesh out the world. They can be tiny things like; “Please find my Spouse/Child/Pet”, “Please check out this dungeon”, “Please escort me to a location”, etc. little things that flesh out the world. Also having Long storylines that don't pertain to the main story is very important as well. [u]Exploration that rewards players[/u] You want to keep players INTERESTED. Grinding for Loot is nice but it can get old. It is nice to explore and get something for your efforts. (Like in Borderlands when you find those huge chests) You have given them Open World environments with wonderful Art design and direction. Use them. Encourage players to explore the worlds and in return gain loot and lore for doing so. Exploration is a great way to get players invested. Make the ruins of humanity and other civilizations explorable and make it rewarding to do so. [u]Why Lore?[/u] Lore is almost the only thing that kept the player base interested in the game. It is what reviewers have said NEEDS to be in the game. Yet, we still see it missing Most Story heavy games have a lore codex that players can look at in the game. Destiny should have a Lore Codex (aka the Grimoire) start out with any basic information the player can learn about, then have it update with each new finding, encounter, and conversation, as you progress through the game. Fill the ruins of humanity with lore about the Golden Age: Put Books, Journals, Audio files, Drawings, Holograms, etc. things that players can check out. Having the option to ask the Ghost questions about the world, would be a great way to introduce and immerse players into the universe. (DOOM, a game where story does not matter, has a lore codex) Side Note: For a game with such rich lore, it sure lacks any story that is on par with it. Utilize the lore. Destiny 2 campaign was better than Destiny 1 but that is not saying much. [u]Endgame[/u] This goes back side quests. Destiny should have plenty of content to do after the story that is worthwhile because that is the other half of the game that makes people want to stay and adds replayability to the world. The Base game content should provide that. Players should not have to wait for a DLC three months from now to provide that content. [b]Conclusion[/b] Destiny should not be getting a pass simply because it has Potential. If it were a F2P game that would be one thing but we paid $60 for it. Destiny should be a complete Product at Launch. This Post now has its own page here: https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/232841334?

You do realize there is a pretty clear alternate first sentence to your post, right: [i]Players [/i]learned nothing from all of the failures and mistakes of Destiny. Anybody who bought D2 based on the shiny hype allowed Bungie to get away with releasing another problem-ridden product. Close your -blam!-ing wallet until a game's been out for a few months. You lose nothing by doing so.

I paid approximately 95.00$ for this game and all I get is approx. 25% of the storyline/ game so far, and a plastic Cayde-6. 60.00$ pre-paid, 35$ plus tax upon pick up for the DLC, typical marketing ploy of any company for profit. Create not just one product package, but separate the product- bundle them, market up the individual prices and as a bundle it appears cheaper and a save. Good, decent, and quality products or not. Still I ain't complaining. It is a "[i]cost[/i]" hurdle of every gaming studio: good in-game options and variety of game play verses awesome sick in-game graphics. Doing both in one game and the company either breaks even or goes broke. Both options are not ideal for any management company.

Bungie's turning into another Bioware.

[quote]Bungie either learned nothing from all the failures and mistakes of D1,[/quote] Apparently they didn't. Luke's idea of "fun" is different from everyone else's. [quote]or is so out of touch, unethical and corrupt that they want to benefit by reselling the game in several collections...how many times did we all re-buy D1 because of how they packaged the DLCs?[/quote] Consumers with an IQ over 35 only bought the base game once. All the expansions were sold individually. [quote]Bungie is either a train wreck, are so rabid with greed that - like the US Banks trying to re-create the sub-prime loan bubble - they want to exploit customers in the exact way they "accidentally" did with D1.[/quote] So it's Bungie's fault people can't read, scroll down a PS/XBL page, or are too lazy to visit a game store to buy the individual expansions? [quote]Overall, despite having more polish from launch, D2 is a short, underwhelming update to D1. This is an overhyped DLC, not a sequel.[/quote] Wish people would look past games like Witcher or GTA as the "norm" of $60 AAA, cause, sadly, they're not. They're [i]exceptions.[/i] Let's see what recent $60 AAA games nets us on average (all times are median completion time for main campaign): Witcher 3 - 47 hrs Horizon Zero Dawn - 21 1/2 hrs Call of Duty: BO 3 - 9 hrs Call of Duty: IW - 8 hrs Call of Duty: AW 7 hrs Overwatch - No campaign, PvP only Battlefield 1 - 9 hrs Destiny 2 - 12 1/2 hrs Titanfall 2 - 6 hrs Gravity Rush 2 - 19 1/2 hrs For Honor - 7 hrs Resident Evil 7 - 9 hrs Halo 5 - 7 hrs Halo Wars 2 - 8 1/2 hrs Zelda:BotW - 43 1/2 hrs Ghost Recon - 24 hrs The Division - 20 hrs Elder Scrolls - 32 hrs GTA V - 31 hrs ME: Andromeda - 19 1/2 hrs Batman: Arkham Knight - 15 1/2 hrs Deus Ex: Mankind - 14 1/2 hrs The Last of Us - 15 hrs Uncharted 4 - 15 hrs Mirrors Edge: Catalyst - 8 1/2 hrs Campaign lengths are all over the place with most under 20 hrs. Sure, Destiny is on the lower end, can't argue that, but stop acting like you're getting ripped off for "half a game." Millions of folks, including many here complaining of Destiny, seem to have had little trouble buying games like Overwatch, which have even less content than Destiny (nevermind the lack of a single player campaign), even after all their updates and events.

Bungie is riding Activision's dick hard. Have been since before D1. They can't make the game without A's money, and A can't make the money without Bungie being dick riders.

Ignore those who attack you over this feedback. They do it because they can't defend the game. Peace

Destiny 2 is the polar opposite of Value from Witcher 3. Apples to oranges as far as game types, but value can be compared. Destiny 2 has 10 hours game of game content at most, not including competitive. Not a 59.99 experience. Not based on the loose, informal ways we measure game value. 1)Bungie underdelivered 2)D2 is a new D1 adventure with slightly better graphics, at launch anyhow. 3)they cant handle the game activity and too many players are getting kicked constantly from games

Yeah, most MMO's (which this is) cannot be run through in 2 weeks. This is an [b]embarrassment[/b] at best. Game is good, no doubt but the AMOUNT of content is laughable. I want to love this game, I want MORE of it. The fact they time gate everything and then shove expansions down your throat is awful. You know what, give me the whole game up front and charge me per month. [b]Keep expanding on it and I'll keep paying a monthly.[/b] Sad that I am asking for a sub based game, but I want more content and am willing to pay for it. The way they do things at Bungie is just so frustrating to me. My opinion only, so take it for what it is.