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originally posted in: World First Leviathan Completed!
9/14/2017 11:13:10 PM
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[quote]Ok, firstly, the mechanics aren't even fun. The penultimate scene is basically a re skinned crash bandicoot level, there is only one boss, the loot sucks, the respawn system sucks, and the checkpoints are tedious.[/quote] Talking about this?
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  • Yes.

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  • Then I must wonder if you read [i]my[/i] recent reply. [quote]Ok, firstly, the mechanics aren't even fun.[/quote] Support for this? [quote]The penultimate scene is basically a re skinned crash bandicoot level[/quote] Funny, but inaccurate. The gauntlet is quite complex in actuality and requires excellent coordination in a timely fashion. [quote]there is only one boss[/quote] Okay? This is not inherently bad. There is still a [b]ton[/b] of combat. [quote]the loot sucks[/quote] How? You get tokens that guarantee you receive a certain amount. You get more for doing more, guaranteed thanks to tokens. Let's not forget you actually get glimmer all throughout from enemies unlike in D1. (This is true outside the raid as well) [quote]the respawn system sucks[/quote] How? It grants a certain level of mercy and ensures that nobody gets left out of playing simultaneously. It's very intuitive and practical. [quote]and the checkpoints are tedious.[/quote] What do you even mean here and how? Now see, that was more effort than you warranted because you basically threw a bunch of naked claims out, but there ya go.

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  • [quote]Then I must wonder if you read [i]my[/i] recent reply. [quote]Ok, firstly, the mechanics aren't even fun.[/quote] Support for this? [/quote] You do realize fun is subjective right?

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  • Then get on [b]that[/b] guy's case for leaving out any indication that it's just his opinion, and the fact that he is trying to use it to dog on [i]objective[/i] elements like game design.

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  • It's implied. The fun derived from the design of this raid is subjective. There is nothing objective about it.

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  • It's not implied. You're thinking it's [i]tacit[/i] which it should be, but in case you didn't notice he uses his opinion as a starter for judging the raid. He speaks declaratively on it which indicates he doesn't understand that he's trying to get way too much leverage out of his personal preference.

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  • Also you do realize tacit is synonymous with implied. LMAO

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  • There's still contextual differences. If synonyms were completely interchangeable then there would be no point in even having both words in the language. Tacit fits much more here because that dude did not [b]imply[/b] that he was sharing an opinion, even though it was obvious to anyone reading that he was.

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  • Also there are lots of pointless words in the English language.

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  • He did imply through the use of the word fun.

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  • It is implied. What is considered fun to each individual is subjective. It's pure opinion.

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  • [quote]Support for this?[/quote] What is a global measurement for fun? There is none, as what people call fun is an opinion. However, most people don't think this raid's mechanics are fun. [quote]Funny, but inaccurate. The gauntlet is quite complex in actuality and requires excellent coordination in a timely fashion.[/quote] Most of the time there are just a couple guys jumping through holes and doing crappy parkour while the other guys casually shoot a few cabal. [quote]Okay? This is not inherently bad. There is still a [b]ton[/b] of combat.[/quote] Every raid thus far has had multiple bosses, and most people enjoy that. The exhilaration of slaying an enemy leader is much more than successfully jumping through a series of holes. [quote]How? You get tokens that guarantee you receive a certain amount. You get more for doing more, guaranteed thanks to tokens. Let's not forget you actually get glimmer all throughout from enemies unlike in D1. (This is true outside the raid as well)[/quote] Some of the chests contain only glimmer, no tokens or gear or anything. Also, you need like thirty tokens to get something good. The old system of 'your loot is in the chest at the end of an encounter' is much better than 'we [i]might[/i] give you loot, but you will probably get tokens that you have to grind for to get loot'. Why do we need tokens in the first place? They just add more grinding to a game that is already all about grinding. [quote]How? It grants a certain level of mercy and ensures that nobody gets left out of playing simultaneously. It's very intuitive and practical.[/quote] If you run out of token, you wipe. Raids were much better when there has a timed re spawn. [quote]What do you even mean here and how?[/quote] I mean the checkpoints are tedious because you have to pull a ton of levers to get back to [i]almost[/i] where you were before. Why can't we keep the old checkpoint method? [quote]Now see, that was more effort than you warranted because you basically threw a bunch of naked claims out, but there ya go.[/quote] Well now we finally got a conversation started

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  • [quote]What is a global measurement for fun? There is none, as what people call fun is an opinion. However, most people don't think this raid's mechanics are fun.[/quote] Citation on that one, boss. This raid is objectively the most complex Bungie has created. That alone implies a few things that are strongly associated with quality entertainment value. [quote]Most of the time there are just a couple guys jumping through holes and doing crappy parkour while the other guys casually shoot a few cabal.[/quote] This is just you drastically downplaying any non combat roles. It's a clear bias. Guess you hate jumping puzzles too, something included in every raid for various reasons all central around their their entertainment value. [quote]Every raid thus far has had multiple bosses, and most people enjoy that. The exhilaration of slaying an enemy leader is much more than successfully jumping through a series of holes.[/quote] Same as above. You just have a bias favoring combat roles and you're downplaying non combat raid sections. As long as a section is well made it doesn't matter whether it's a Dark Souls boss or a Dance Dance Revolution challenge. [quote]Some of the chests contain only glimmer, no tokens or gear or anything. Also, you need like thirty tokens to get something good. The old system of 'your loot is in the chest at the end of an encounter' is much better than 'we [i]might[/i] give you loot, but you will probably get tokens that you have to grind for to get loot'. Why do we need tokens in the first place? They just add more grinding to a game that is already all about grinding.[/quote] Pretty sure the only exclusively glimmer chests are the ones for opening the doors in the castellum, ergo a transitional area. Plus, all the chests in the underbelly have legendery or exotic engrams (sometimes both) plus more tokens. Tokens don't add grinding. That doesn't make sense. It's just a system of distribution to fit Bungie's idea of balance between guarantee and RNG. In an old raid bad RNG meant little to no drops. In this one bad RNG just means less random engrams. Even if you don't get a good amount of tokens you can save them up, always making progress to your preferred loot. [quote]If you run out of token, you wipe. Raids were much better when there has a timed re spawn.[/quote] To me the standard is death = permanent unless using self-res. Why would anyone run a normal mode raid in end game Light levels? Running out of tokens was never a concern for my team. [quote]I mean the checkpoints are tedious because you have to pull a ton of levers to get back to [i]almost[/i] where you were before. Why can't we keep the old checkpoint method?[/quote] Old method obviously doesn't work on a raid that's not directly linear. Navigation is part of the challenge of this raid and it's fresh and intuitive. It's plenty rewarding thanks to the nearly dozen hidden chests too. It's also more logical in the game's lore that we have to get back inside after leaving, and the re-entry ritual takes like 2 minutes anyway. [quote]Wellnow we finally got a conversation started[/quote] Close enough.

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