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8/31/2017 12:22:12 AM
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This is a topic we have anticipated. Thank you for sharing your points in a constructive manner. It’s a conversation we will continue to monitor. Please continue to share honest feedback about your experiences in the wild. This is why we test. Thanks for playing. We’ll talk more after the PC Beta.
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  • Just to add my feedback; I ended up playing the beta way less than I expected to and it was entirely down to the frustrating PvP experience. I had some fun games for sure, but every other game it was clear that one or more players were getting a huge advantage from the aim assist. I have played plenty of pvp fps games, and the level of skill is fairly consistent. You see good players all the time and even unbelievably good players, but in the Destiny 2 Beta there are 1-4 godlike players in every other game? sometimes you can get legitimately double headshotted by handcannons I accept that, but when it happens so often there is clearly something wrong. The only solution I can see is it to either heavily neuter the aim assist or better yet remove it entirely. I'll be keeping an eye out for what happens with this - If this stays in its current iteration I won't be buying the game.

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  • Edited by Cayde-6: 8/31/2017 6:36:18 AM
    [quote]Credit to Rage Machine on YouTube. Posting this here to showcase what PC players would like to avoid in the release version of D2. Sometimes showing is better than telling. Cheers![/quote] This video says it all. It's absolutely disgusting that this is even a possibility.

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  • Edited by RavenousLD3341: 8/31/2017 1:10:42 PM
    This is hilarious :D AA has to go on PC don't allow it in PvP or PvE

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  • Yes, it is hilarious how overly serious you people take this stuff.

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  • Hey you replied to me way down the thread, and I could have jumped in on any one of your thirty or so posts but jumping in on this one where you're, ironically, belittling [i]others[/i] for taking this stuff too seriously seemed pretty appropriate. The core of your "argument", as it were, seems to be that [i]if[/i] there are cheaters, they should just punish them and be done with it. Well, first off, there [i]are[/i] cheaters. Right now. The game isn't even out of beta yet and people have already figured out how to use free software to trick the game into thinking they're using a controller when they're not, which adds a free aimbot, courtesy of Bungie, to their M+KB play. And to pretend there's a question whether it's already happening is at best misinformed, but at worst completely disingenuous. There is a cheating problem on PC [i]at this very moment[/i], and because the cheat is undetectable, it's not going to just disappear, that's not how this stuff works. On the PC, this kind of stuff becomes the new baseline, and ruins play for all but the top tier of players who can outplay Bungie-sanctioned head-snapping. Is that fun? Is that fair? Even one doesn't care about PVP themselves, it ruins the experience for people who do. Even if it [i]were[/i] detectable, people find ways around this kind of stuff all the time. Now the devs have to spend work-hours on plugging leaks that they themselves introduced instead of spending time on fixing actual hacks and bugs, or producing new content for us to enjoy. So PC players get to deal with [i]that[/i], while console players only have to deal with the minority of players who can drop $100 on a peripheral that will let them use M+KB. Great. Thanks. Super equivalent scenarios. I also see you trying to imply that people won't pick up the PC version if they want to use aim assist in PVP on the PC, like this is somehow a detriment. This is just clearly a nonsensical argument. If console players want aim assist in PVP, they can buy the console version. If they want to up their game and play without training wheels with their controllers on PC like the rest of us, I welcome them with open arms. Bungie isn't losing revenue from this because they'll just buy the console version, and the PC players get the experience they demand from their games. In fact, [i]if you drive PC players away from the game, that's the only conceivable way Bungie loses money on this[/i], because most PC players aren't just gonna suck it up and buy it for a different platform, they're gonna go back to one of the myriad other options on the platform that offers a competitive experience. The only reason a PC version would exist is to capture the PC audience [i]in addition[/i] to the Console audience, and if they fail to do that,[i] that's[/i] when they lose money. The game just shouldn't be balanced to a minority of players using an optional peripheral when literally everyone who has a computer has access to the control method which puts them at a baseline, ESPECIALLY when those players are already making the choice not to play on the platform where they would be able to play as they prefer. End of story. It defeats the purpose of making a PC version, and many are the half-assed PC ports that have gone down the route you're proposing and failed miserably. If Bungie is serious about bringing a PC port that respects the platform and will thrive on PC for a long time, they'll listen to the PC players, because that's who the game is made for. Console players can adapt, or they can buy the game for console. Saying PC players should just suck it up and deal with it is how you kill the PC port.

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  • Edited by kellygreen2: 8/31/2017 3:43:48 PM
    Nothing is "undetectable". Its just a matter that you can't detect it with the way you're going about DOING it. What YOU are failing to realize is that the games you are used to are all games that were designed for PC by PC developers. Bungie is a console game developer, who is porting over a game that has a MASSIVE console fanbase...and one where the number of people looking to move to PC from console may overwhelm the number of PC gamers. ...and Bungie has a vested interest in not alienating those original fans. Especially when Bungie has been touting PC as the "performance" option of the game....and not-so-subtly encouraging people to move to the PC platform if they are performance-conscious. So where Blizzard may have no incentive to bear the time and expense to come up with a way of allowing AA to stay in the game....Bungie does. So where Blizzard may have designed a game that becomes awkward to use if you disable mouse function.....Bungie did not. At the end of the day, you can't use this exploit without creating the paradoxical situation of having a mouse connected to the computer...while the game is being fed controller input. So the issue isn't "detecting" the cheat. The issue is BLOCKING the means by which the cheat works. IOW, disabling controller input if a mouse is connected to the computer. For games designed specifically for PC, this will cause as many problems as it solves. But Destiny 2 was a game that was designed to be fully functional using a controller as the only source of input. So much so, that one reviewer of the PC beta mentioned it in a preliminary review...and how he would redesign the menus. But the fact that Bungie did this gives them a whole host of ways of combatting or circumventing this problem that either didn't occur to developers thinking "inside the PC gaming box"....or did occur to them but simply didn't want to incur the time and expense to implement them. So the issue here is simply one of elitism. PC players are basically telling console players, "-blam!- you...use a mouse and keyboard". On a platform that is supposed to be about empowering the player and giving them options. Not taking them away. But as I said before, Bungie has a vested interest in not alienating its original fanbase...and a fanbase that---on consoles----likely dwarfs the number of new PC players likely to be brought to the game.

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  • Okay, let's break this down point by point. [quote]Nothing is "undetectable". Its just a matter that you can't detect it with the way you're going about DOING it.[/quote] Flatly incorrect. Controller identification is by its very nature client-side, so if the spoofing program passes an identifier to the game which is indistinguishable from a controller, the game has to believe the user is using a controller. You could have the game look out for the particular programs that would be able to spoof this, but it's just as easy to make a new program with the same functionality. [quote]What YOU are failing to realize is that the games you are used to are all games that were designed for PC by PC developers. Bungie is a console game developer, who is porting over a game that has a MASSIVE console fanbase...and one where the number of people looking to move to PC from console may overwhelm the number of PC gamers.[/quote] Okay, a little patronizing here. I do realize this. I also realize that they're releasing this specific version of D2 on PC, not console. So why should they not cater to the PC audience here and the console audience on consoles? Is that not[i] the entire point of making a PC version[/i], is to capture the PC audience? Who would go to the trouble of making a port for a game just to capture the audience they already have firmly in their pockets on a platform where they're well-established? How would that even make business sense? [quote]...and Bungie has a vested interest in not alienating those original fans.[/quote] ...which is why a console version still exists... [quote]Especially when Bungie has been touting PC as the "performance" option of the game....and not-so-subtly encouraging people to move to the PC platform if they are performance-conscious.[/quote] I haven't seen any "encouragement" as you say, so I have to assume you're just referring to the fact that PC outperforms consoles. This is how it's always been. If you want better graphics, controls, and a more competitive atmosphere, you go to PC. To compromise any part of that would only result in a less impactful PC release, and again, at that point, why even expend the effort? [quote]So where Blizzard may have no incentive to bear the time and expense to come up with a way of allowing AA to stay in the game....Bungie does. So where Blizzard may have designed a game that becomes awkward to use if you disable mouse function.....Bungie did not.[/quote] If you read my original post, I say that I believe AA has a place in PVP. I stick to my original assertion that in the specific arena of PVP, where AA affects the experience of other players, that is where it should be disabled. And Overwatch works great on a controller, especially on consoles. Where it is also available, for people who prefer that experience. At like a third of the cost of a gaming PC. So uh. [quote]At the end of the day, you can't use this exploit without creating the paradoxical situation of having a mouse connected to the computer...while the game is being fed controller input. So the issue isn't "detecting" the cheat. The issue is BLOCKING the means by which the cheat works. IOW, disabling controller input if a mouse is connected to the computer. For games designed specifically for PC, this will cause as many problems as it solves.[/quote] Yes. Agreed. It would. [quote]But Destiny 2 was a game that was designed to be fully functional using a controller as the only source of input. So much so, that one reviewer of the PC beta mentioned it in a preliminary review...and how he would redesign the menus. But the fact that Bungie did this gives them a whole host of ways of combatting or circumventing this problem that either didn't occur to developers thinking "inside the PC gaming box"....or did occur to them but simply didn't want to incur the time and expense to implement them.[/quote] So what you're saying here is, Blizzard can't think of a way around it, you can't think of a way around it, I can't think of a way around it, nobody in this thread can present a feasible way around it, but because this was a console game first, surely Bungie (a company with fewer credits on PC in exactly the same way Blizz has fewer credits on consoles) [i]would?[/i] Even if that actually followed logically, you're basically arguing not to take this experience-ruining exploit vector out of the game because a [i]hypothetical [/i]solution [i]may [/i]exist. Not a very strong argument. [quote]So the issue here is simply one of elitism.[/quote] I'm gonna stop you right there. I play games on PC, I play games on console. I'm a gamer, I don't need to choose sides, I go where the fun is. Spare me the ad hominems. [quote]PC players are basically telling console players, "-blam!- you...use a mouse and keyboard". On a platform that is supposed to be about empowering the player and giving them options. Not taking them away.[/quote] How do you not grasp that by balancing the [i]PC version[/i] around the [i]minority of players who might want to switch from console[/i], you are [i]removing options from the target demographic for this release[/i] by[i] removing the option to engage in a competitive experience worthy of the platform[/i]? If you want AA in PVE on console, fine, have at it. If you want AA in PVP, fine, play on console. If you don't want AA in PVP, you should be able to choose that option as well. [quote]But as I said before, Bungie has a vested interest in not alienating its original fanbase...and a fanbase that---on consoles----likely dwarfs the number of new PC players likely to be brought to the game.[/quote] Which. Is. Why. A. Console. Version. Still. Exists. There is basic math here you don't seem to understand. A console player who doesn't like the fact they can't AA on PC PVP will buy the game for the console [i]they already own[/i]. If they don't like the way the controller is handled on PC, they won't buy it for PC it's true, but why would that stop them from buying it where they were probably already going to anyway? One Console Purchase ($60) + No PC Purchase ($0) [i]does not equal[/i] ($-60), it equals $60 BUT for a PC player who doesn't own a console, No Console Purchase ($0) + No PC Purchase Because The Game is Balanced for Consoles ($0) = $0. QED. Spending the money on a PC port and disappointing the people who would buy it [i]instead of nothing[/i] is the only conceivable way Bungie stands to lose money on this. This is really tiresome. This will be my last response on this thread.

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  • Thank you for demonstrating the rigid mindset that I was referring to. You don't need to detect a cheat. If you close the loophole that the cheat uses, you don't have to worry about trying to figure out who's cheating and who isn't. The cheat can't work if there isn't a mouse connected to the computer. You just use the client side of the game to detect if a mouse is connected. If one is, then you disable controller input until that mouse is disconnected. I'm more than willing to use a controller as my only way of interacting with the game while it's connected.

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  • ...and then Bungie's inundated with a metric [expletive]-ton of support tickets.

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  • Edited by zombifiedrob: 8/31/2017 6:49:18 AM
    "Let the right mouse button take you on an adventure." Seriously, this is what it devolves into if aim assist is left in the pc client in any form whatsoever. Catering to a small number of gamepad users doesn't justify having this as the result. Sorry guys. Edit: Holy crap, that snap at 4:40 in the video. Absolutely ridiculous. And again, it bears repeating, you DO NOT need to purchase a XIM4 to do this. You don't even have to have a controller.

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  • [quote]This is a topic we have anticipated. Thank you for sharing your points in a constructive manner. It’s a conversation we will continue to monitor. Please continue to share honest feedback about your experiences in the wild. This is why we test. Thanks for playing. We’ll talk more after the PC Beta.[/quote] I plugged in my controller for 2 matches to test it out, the lock-on to targets is just to high imho. I'm not saying remove the aim assists, but tweak it, and maybe consider disabling it for Comp/Ranked PvP. Because like others mentioned before, it's going to be exploited. All in all, if you're skilled enough this all doesn't matter that much *kuch*. It's just that gut feeling, that if I lose a 1 v 1, and I'm like; "is this mofo exploiting the aim assist" haha.

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  • It doesn't lock on or snap on at all. All aim assist does is slow down your aim sensitivity if you aim over an enemy. It doesn't magnetize or move it at all.

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  • Thats not true. AA in destiny locks to center mass

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  • Just putting in my vote for removing or weakening the AutoAim, especially in PVP.

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  • Please remove Aim Assist on the PC PvP version of Destiny 2, not only can it be exploited if it's present at all and will kill the PC PvP side of the game but you're giving an artificial advantage to people who are choosing to play with a handicap. If i cover up one eye and tie two of my fingers together will you allow us to use wall hacks? If i break my knee before a 100m sprint should be i allowed to start 20m from the finish line? Do not give an unfair, artificial advantage that can be easily exploited just because people WANT to play with a disadvantage. It will cripple the PC PvP side of the game.

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  • If there's no AA on controller (stealth force MnK) then no double dip on PC for me. Keep up the great work.

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  • Tha's going to be true for a lot of players. If the remove Aim-Assist, they are going to lose a lot of players coming over from console. Who simply have no interest in being forced to play with Mouse and keyboard.

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  • And in the process, lose a larger portion of the PC player base.

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  • That may STILL be outnumbered by the number of console gamers looking to move to PC. Why do you think so many multi-platform games wind up with such shitty PC versions? Its because developers recognize that the console market is much bigger than PC, and they have far fewer headaches with cheating, hacking and piracy on console than on PC. Activision is willing to move into the PC market and take advantage of another revenue stream for the game. But not at the expense of alienating the console gamers who made this game successful, and a game that other devs are trying to imitate.

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  • [quote]console market is much bigger than PC[/quote] Hahaha. No. It's really not. I mean consoles have a place in the market are generally user friendly, have functional hardware and exclusives help drive sales; but don't try and pretend that consoles are the bigger market. https://mygaming.co.za/news/features/89913-there-are-1-8-billion-gamers-in-the-world-and-pc-gaming-dominates-the-market.html PC ports are harder, yes, because they have to account for more variety. PC is not a closed system, instead you can customize to fit your needs. Often ports have been outsourced to a third party and that will end up being garbage. I mean look at Arkham Origins. (Bonus to PC you're not paying extra for online play) Consoles on the other hand have strict hardware limits. You have one set of hardware per platform to work with. So while it may be easier to make sure it works, the product can never exceed the closed system's performance capability. I love my consoles, but let's not pretend they're the dominant market or that they're technically superior. It's blatantly false and fanboy cult mentality. Follow the games and their quality, not the company that runs the platform. PC has more games, more exclusives and multiple digital purchasing platforms so you can, usually, decide which purchasing platform to support.

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  • Misleading. We're not talking about PC gaming as a whole. We are talking about MULTI-PLATFORM, AAA games....and consoles dominate. Especially in action games and FPS. Check any multi-platform action game, you'll always find that the number of players playing it on consoles always dwarfs the numbers playing it on PC.

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  • Any? Overwatch, smite, battlefield, I guarantee PUBG with maintain higher numbers, ARK. I mean that's just a handful, but the point is that just because [b]some multi-plats[/b] have a different player distribution doesn't make console the bigger market. You have to ask why the individual game is bigger. D1 PS4 crushed Xbox, why? More PS4 sold and timed exclusives. That will influence, though not determine, the player pool.

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  • Expand your perspective beyond shooters and MOBAs.

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  • So games that are irrelevant to the discussion? We are literally discussing a shooter. If you have to narrow your discussion down to a completely different genre to justify how you think this game should be handled, you don't have an argument with legs. You're basically arguing that golf has handicaps so hockey should too.

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  • People arguing with the fact that the game used to be on console before as a reason for it to have AA on PC. At that point I might just close my browser and hope for the best cause as soon as people have no idea what they are talking about and throw it random reasons it gets ridicilous. Enjoy your AA on PC if they keep it, I'll just ignore PvP if it ends like this.

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