Who is valve, and why should I care about them on a Bungie forum?
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They don't matter at all. The op is just falsely equations the sort of cheating that happens with connections in destiny to the actual cheating programs like aim hacks or wall hacks that plague pc games to pretend that a Bungie isn't trying to curb cheating.
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[quote]They don't matter at all. The op is just falsely equations the sort of cheating that happens with connections in destiny to the actual cheating programs like aim hacks or wall hacks that plague pc games to pretend that a Bungie isn't trying to curb cheating.[/quote] Cheating is cheating regardless if you manipulating connections or game code. THATS straight from Bungies own mouth. Wanna try again?
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exactly this ^^^. cheating in any form is just as detrimental as another and infact the more we recognize and push for game developers to start forcing connection integrity and disallowing those who manipulate data transfer which causes red bars, the better the games we play will be.
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Except that while cheating is cheating hack programs are clear cheating while connection issues aren't always clear. The banns that valve did as well are inflated because some where large numbers of accounts owned by single players meaning that less than 40K people were banned so you're using an inflated number to compare it to the number that Bungie doesn't release.
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if you play from guatamala and plug your router into a potatoe, you are cheating.. bungie should stop allowing any connection that doesn't equate to a green bar. simple.. then a bna isn't necessary, just doesn't let you play until you have a stable connection that meets criteria.
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"if you play from guatamala and plug your router into a potatoe, you are cheating" Now you are straight up lying just to prove your point. You must live in a nice area and have access to Verizon FiOS or something similar. News flash: Not everyone has these privileges. So get over yourself. Also, although it does ruin the experience for others having crappy internet. These people are not cheaters. They should punished in a different way. Not banned completely. You cant help where you born into this world.
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no but, you can choose what you do as an individual in that world..
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That still doesn't magically give you better internet. SMDH.
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Edited by justin_giver: 7/14/2017 7:30:56 PMnope it doesn't.. it gives them the choice to be part of the problem or to play something else.. pretty easy really. maybe that's to hard for you to understand. you, I and everyone else knows that the biggest problem is the kids in a family who have many devices, wifi etc and those who purposfully set the mtu to a lower number.. however, the guy from guatamala.. best get that internet fixed as I see no difference between him or the 13 year old kid in connecticut.
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You just don't get it. Not everyone wants to play something else, and neither do they have the choice of the internet they have accessible to them. Nor should they be forced to play something else because little spoiled brats like yourself don't like a little lag. I have played this game since year one and can count on one hand how many times lag has actually hindered my performance. Perhaps you should just get better instead of pointing your finger and the poor people around the world.
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YOU don't get it.. the world isn't equal. I can waste water and the kid in africa with a fly on his eye doesn't have any.. some countries have shitty internet or none at all, I don't live there and I don't contribute to how things run there either. All the excuses in the world will not convice me that I should give 2 shits about someone else who is not properly equipt to play the game on the same level as the majority of us to ensure a fair and equal match. maybe yuo can buy the guy in the afghan mountains a ps4 and supply him internet so he can play too.. it wouldn't be fair that he can't get a ps4 or interne to play the game he bought.. its the same concept here.. if it doesn't match up to what the rest of us use.. that is tough on them.. GAMING IS A PRIVILAGE not a right. You pay for privilages..
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No one does that. How about actually using a realistic argument. Hyperbole only weakens your argument by making you look like a three-year-old who's complaining the other kid has an advantage in a race because their shoes have racing stripes. What you're bringing up is more the gray area that I referenced on this thread. It's people who bans would punish for where they live which brings up the question of what it's fair to punish a person for. A player could be in Montana with a shit connection and they want to play just as fairly as everyone else but can't Magic their connection better. That's very different though from the valve bans which were done based off of people installing programs onto their computer for games for the express purpose of unbalancing a game in their favor.
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hell yes it is fair to not allow a person to play a game if they cnnot meet minimum standards. play a sport and you must have equiptment that supports it, protects you and meets requirements. PC games have been doing this for a long long time. Cheating is Cheating, purposefull or otherwise. Ignorance is unfortunately no excuse or shouldn't be.
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Wow that smacks of privilege. You know some people play sports with people and they have lower quality gear because the other players aren't ass holes and declare that they should be limited by something so small. A player should be allowed to play a game that they paid for just like you. It's Bungie's responsibility to make it fair for every player not the player so the player shouldn't be punished for Bungie failing.
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playing a video game is a privilage, purchasing the game isn't hte only thing required to play, a console, power and a television are also required and internet.. if they have minimum standards and you still purchase it.. thats the consumers stupidity.
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And they do have Internet. Nothing in the purchase requires any quality of internet, just internet. It's up to Bungie to be sure that as long as they have a connection they can play and it's Bungie's job to make those connections not effect the game.
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Edited by justin_giver: 7/12/2017 8:56:09 PMYes, currently the only requirement is internet, that said, they could implement standards, which are currently not in the game but, they could and they should just like pc games. This is bungies game, they can do what they want and change the rules at any time, that is part of the end user agreement. Other games seem to publicize bans, put significant emphasis on protecting players from lag and other game manipulations, if they can do it no reason that bungie couldn't either.
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What? Did you accidentally delete part of your post? But yeah, Bungie should provide a system that makes sure that a person's connection doesn't effect the game. Don't know what pcs have to do with anything.
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not sure why it deleted so much.. read it now. the point about pc is that they have been limiting abillity to play with a host of requirements and if you don't meet them, the game doesn't work, even if you buy it.. the onus is on the player to ensure they have the equiptment that it will work with.
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Now that post makes more sense. Pcs don't exactly work the same as consoles so it's hard to compare how they control connections. And the question is more is it fair for Bungie to punish players for a choice that Bungie makes. If a player buys destiny and they're just required to have a connection and not demanded any standard is it ethically fair and something we should support as gamers when they then make a change that suddenly makes a player a drag on the game. Bungie shifted their matchmaking to be skill focused which put people who'd not had trouble when they bought the game in a position where they cause lag. As a gamer, that could just as easily have Bungie change thing that suddenly would cause you to be the problem, support when they then punish players for that choice that the company made which the player had no choice on. I'm a supporter of Bungie releasing the numbers of banns they do a month. I don't know why they don't, maybe because no matter what the number is people would still complain that it isn't enough like the op. Maybe it's because their policy is to not talk about bans at all so they don't put it out there. Hell if I know. I only understand maybe half of what they do.
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Ethically, yes.. it is fair. The player must agree to the end user agreement, among the things they agree is that they game isn't theres. It remains bungies property to change, manipulate etc even stop supporting and not allowing a person to play, so ethically yes, it is acceptable to make a change to support the player base based soley on the acceptance of the end user agreement. Some people won't read it or have any idea what it means, like most small print, it doesn't matter to anyone until it effects them in a negative way. Yes, they could make the game end up with me as the problem, and I tell you even with thousands of hours in, if I was the problem, couldn't or wouldn't fix it, I wouldn't continue to play, that is morally and ethically the thing to do as I have agreed to the end user agreement. many would not follow my example I do believe bungie shold publish the nubmer of bans and account timeouts they give out.. it would put into perspective the effort they claim. As it is currently, we see the same issues over and over and over and if they are handing out timeouts and bans they are just as quickly being filled by those coming off timeouts or those who think they can beat the ban hammer.
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I think you've confused moral/ethical with legal. Moral and ethical is about what it's fair to do as a person. Bungie making a change that harms some gamers to a point they're put in the wrong for a reason that doesn't benefit the game isn't ethical. It's legal because of the agreement but not moral. Would connection based matchmaking harm the game. No. Does skill based cause more lag and some gamers to be to a point where they harm the other players. Yeah. Morally punishing them is wrong because it's like kicking a cat because you moved the litter box into the living room of your home and now you can smell the crap they just took. They have no control over where the box is and it's your fault for moving it from the laundry room where the smell didn't bother anyone. Now the difference there is that it's illegal to kick the cat while it's not illegal to ban a player.
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ethical and moral can be somewhat interchanged here and it deals with right or wrong. Being that a player must agree to the terms of the end user agreement, wouldn't it be wrong of them to renege on the acceptance of the end user agreement when it no longer suits them? And hence why it is ethically and morally ok, right and acceptable if bungie were to implement something limiting player ability to play. not saying a ban in even necessary but, a freeze out of pvp game play while the minimum standard is not met. bungie could limit the issue by matching connection far more heavily, however, even players in the same city as I live in will have connection issues playing form a big apartment complex.. the wifi issue and many many other issues that would or could, limit them being able to play and would likely result in the same type of freeze out that I am talking about.
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Yeah still I think you're mixing up ethics and legality. The user agreement makes banning players legal removing any legal recourse but ethics is more about not cheating people, not banning people because of a change in policy the company makes that is violated by past actions. The division banned people who used a cheese for their first raid and while it was legally acceptable it wasn't ethical and they got flack for it. To put it in another way consider year one. Consider an alternate history where Bungie put in the condition that you had to have ghorn to play a raid not just ass holes on lfg. That's legally something they can do but it's ethically shit. A player is suddenly limited from content they used to have that Bungie changed and getting a ghorn is something they don't have control over because Rng is controlled by Bungie. No one would be okay with that. Hell they complained constantly about it on this forum when the lfg people would do it and Bungie got flack for not doing the ethical thing and making it more available. I think they could do a lot to help their image and confidence of players if they released the numbers. Of course it would never be enough as players over inflate how many people are actively cheating(manipulating connection on purpose to win). They could make a system that works off the principle behind reputations on Xbox. Microsoft added in reputations so you could report people who were ass holes in games which lowered their reputation then made it possible to access that information when matchmaking. The idea was games would put jerks in games with jerks. Connect people who can't connect well to others in games with those that can't connect well with anyone. If everyone is lagging does a lagging player have an unfair advantage?
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both options you mention at the end I would be on board with. banning a player for not meeting a standard isn't the answer.. some type of alternative is needed that as you say pits them with other assholes, or other red bars etc.. or even puts them in a penalty box unable to play the game mode until the solution is found.. ie dude in mexico using a potatoe also has torential rain and so his connection is significantly impacted more than his potatoe normally does.. he can't play while the rain is pouring down but, once it dries out and his connection improved he could play.