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originally posted in:The Ashen Conflux
originally posted in: Worms, Ahamkara, and Wish Dragons
2/14/2017 6:06:29 PM
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good job fox. i agree that the ahamkara the same as the wish dragons and the worm gods and i believe that they have great power over their apperance. i also think that they feed on light.
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  • Yes did u notice that the Worms taught the Hive to feed on Light and also feed on Light themselves? And the Ahamkara are always near the Traveler and it's creations, meaning that they may feed on it as well

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  • Sigh. The ahamkara are not of the light or the dark - they are in the middle. That's why Siff arath was angers about their smug freedom. Also, the ahamkara worship the worms and are not the worms, sigh arath says so. If the ahamkara were worms, they would be called worms, not dragons.

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  • I am fully aware that Ahamkara are not beings of Light or Darkness, and I hav no idea how u got that out of what I said. I merely stated that the wish dragons/Ahamkara are always found near the Light, and the Worms always found near the Darkness When did Xivu Arath say that? And would you call both a frog a toad just because they are closely related?

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  • U said the ahamkara drain the light when there is little to no evidence that they do. And xivu arath said: the dragons - our gods should be ours alone. Aka, the dragons (ahamkara) have the same gods (worm gods) as the hive. Furthermore, savuthan wanted to vivisect the dragons. Why would she want to vivisect her own gods? Why does oryx refer to the ahamkara as dragons, when if they were the same species as the worms he would call them worms? Although the ahamkara and the worms are related, they are certainly not the same thing.

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  • I said the Worms can feed on the Light (which is clearly stated in the Book of Sorrows) and that this means the Ahamkara MIGHT as well because they always hang around the Traveler. This is just a theory. It seems to me like Xivu was referring to the Harmony when she spoke of sharing gods. The Book says the Harmony turned to dragon-wishes for help, meaning that they asked the Ahamkara to assist them and probably viewed them as gods. So in this instance, the Harmony are equivalent to the Hive and the Ahamkara are equivalent to the Worms. What keeps this from being just a coincidence of word choice is that Xivu says "OUR gods should be ours alone", meaning that the Harmony gods and Hive gods are the same. Thus, Ahamkara=Worm And as for not calling them the same thing: that's a given. The ones that followed the Darkness became known as the Worms and the ones that didn't as the wish dragons and Ahamkara. Different names does not mean different species. For example: Decepticons and Autobots (sry to bring Transformers into this but this is a perfect example) And please actually read what I've said before commenting again, repeating what I've already said is not very enjoyable with this frequency

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  • You fail to understand. The harmony are NOT dragons. They turn to dragon-wishes, just like guardians did after the collapse. Meaning the harmony are like humans - to help fight their enemy they turn to dragon-wishes. The dragons worship the worms - xivu arath says so. Savuthan vivisects the dragons because she does not know what they are. If they were her gods, vivisecting them would make no sense. Now I'm repeating things because you're not reading what I'm writing down. I'm sing something called evidence, your using speculation. The worms have never been described as wish dragons. The worms form symbiotic relationships with other species. The ahamkara grant wishes. The ahamkara are wish dragons. The worms are not. Aka, the ahamkara are not th same species, but the ahamkara worship the worms.

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  • Oh, I see what happened here...dude, The Mechanist is the guy that said Harmony is a dragon-like race. I'm totally on your side on this one, the Harmony are never described to be dragons at all, only the Ahamkara that they ask to help them fight the Hive (the Ahamkara and wish dragons were not members of Harmony) We've been debating over nothing...

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  • How so? I simply believe the ahamkara dragons are not the worm gods, but simply worship the worms.

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  • Oh there is that part of the debate that was actually between us and not meant for someone else: I don't believe the Ahamkara worship the Worms, it just doesn't make any sense

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  • Why? - it would explain there similar speech patterns. Explain your reasoning

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  • Alright, sry that last comment was unexplained. I don't believe the Ahamkara/wish dragons worship the Worms because they fought against the Hive, they hav never attacked the Light or its followers according to our records (although they hav mislead a few Guardians with their riddles and facts), and they are the neutral party (which u pointed out earlier. They only started fighting the Hive when Harmony brokered deals with them) Also, the similar speech pattern is better explained by the theory that the Ahamkara and the Worms are similar or the same species. After all, the Hive worship the Worms and don't speak the same way they do I'd like to hear the evidence to your theory, this is the first time I've heard a view like yours and I'd love to know your side

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  • This is my theory: The worm gods aren't interested in the hive - they are interested in any species that can achieve their goal - whittling the universe down to its final, perfect form. Thus, the worms are willing to empower any species, not just the hive. IMO, the worms empowered the ahamkara so they speak the same way. That is why xivu arath is so angry about her gods not being hers alone. In the books of sorrow, savuthan says, oh sisters mine, but she is not a worm god, she is simply under the influence of a young dead worm, meaning you do not have to be a worm to talk like them. Finally, we can see the worm god larvae about the dreadnought and they look like real life worms but fatter and white. When I think of baby ahamkara I think of small dragons, not worm larvae. Either way, that's just my opinion.

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  • Oh that makes so much more sense now that your theory is stated in one place. That's actually a really great theory, the only thing is it would be more believable if there was more evidence aside from one line from Xivu. I completely agree that the Worms would be willing to work with species aside from the Hive, but as far as we know the Worms hav never interacted with any species aside from the Hive, and that line from Xivu can be interpreted in a few ways, including the way I interpreted it. The Worm offspring do look like big fat worms, and that means the more grown versions must also look like that. What I was saying earlier is that these little Worm offspring that look like worms actually CAN be qualified as wyrms or dragons. That means that, if the Ahamkara look even just similar to the Worms, both species could be defined as dragon-like. But we only hav vague descriptions of both species and don't know if they are identical or not. If we actually had pictures to compare that would almost likely give us automatic confirmation on if the Worms and Ahamkara are the same or not

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  • Exactly. Although id like to believe the worms and the ahamkara are the same since it would make things simpler, the ahamkara are dragons, not worms. The worm gods are worms, not wyrms or dragons. When I think of a worm god, I think of a massive worm with wings and no bones. When I think of an ahamkara, I think of a fire-breathing dragon. I guess well have to wait and see which of us are correct. Finally, heres my interpretation of what xivu arath is saying. The Dragons (Ahamkara) Our gods (worm gods) should be ours alone. The dragons' smug freedom is an insult to me. Id shut them all cells. Bring them to me. Aka, she is angry that the ahamkara also worship the worms. The dragons' smug freedom is the fact that they worship the worms but have not formed a symbiosis with them, or maybe its because the dragons are not of the light or the dark.

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  • This definitely is one of those "wait and see" subjects. I do hav something to point out about their anatomy though: we already know Ahamkara hav bones based off of their armor pieces, but it's actually proven that the Worms hav bones as well. Read the Ocean of Storms 2 grimoire, the man recognizes these creatures as looking like worms, but he finds skeletal remains of them and describes them as having scales and fangs. Also, in the mission with the Wakers of Crota there is a Worm skeleton stretched across the area. We know these are Worms and not Ahamkara because they were hollowing out the Moon, they are in what are now known as Hive locations, and they were laying many eggs down there as well as killing humans. This was how the Hive invasion of the Collapse began There's also the Book of Sorrows Dreadnaught card where Oryx uses Akka's remains to create the Dreadnaught, which does not guarantee that he had bones but suggests it. Also no evidence that te Ahamkara resembles the fire-breathing dragons we all imagine at the word "dragon" (although a fire-breathing Ahamkara would be so cool) I like that interpretation, it's well-based, but my interpretation is that they are referred to as having smug freedom because they are free-roaming and do not obey the Darkness or Light and that Xivu wishes to lock them away so they can't be worshipped by others. Also my earlier statement that when Xivu says "our gods should be ours alone" she means that the Ahamkara are worshipped by the Harmony in the same way that the Worms are worshipped by the Hive. I've gotta admit your translation of that Book is more thorough than mine

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  • Great theory. Not much else I can see tbh, because there is not enough evidence to keep debating. Hopefully in Destiny 271 we'll actually get to fight a worm god or ahamkara - just think a fire-breathing dragon as a raid boss. Also, what's your theory on the ahamkara being the nine?

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  • Yeah I'm out of evidence as well lol I've gotta go now so here's a link to my Nine=Ahamkara theory: https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/208129399/0/0 Great debate man, I'll see u around. Tell me if u ever find any more evidence to this Ahamkara and Worm stuff

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  • Read a number of your posts - great theories. Catch u later!

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  • I did. This may also be one of the reasons the Vanguard ordered them extinct. They had been harmlessly following the Traveler around feeding on her light and then after she expelled much of it to save humanity they didn't know when to quit demanding guardians sacrifice light to them for wishes. They likely did this with the Harmony too but they had the Gift Mast so the cost was much less for them.

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  • Yeah the Ahamkara stick around the Gift Mast even after the Traveler left because it was made with Light And thank you for describing the Traveler as "she", I'm getting sick of seeing people say "the Traveler's a dude". Things like the Traveler and Darkness are to referred to as "it" or "she", and even Rasputin and Toland call one or both "she" #dontassumegender #properpronouns #genderequality #queenoffinalshapes #gardener #hashtag #rasputinrules #tolandtheshattered #howtonameyourcarorboat #done

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  • yeah a lot of people think of the traveler as a male but as you said she's been described repeatedly as female. #toomanyhashtags

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  • She is the gentle Gardener of worlds #nevertoomanyhashtags #hashtag

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  • which makes me wonder what the flowers are. are they the inhabitants? Are they the worlds? And does the black garden have anything to do with it?

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  • I'd say she gardens life, meaning that all the plants and animals are what she tends to The Black Garden is more like the Darkness's version of it, where only after dominance has been achieved by those deemed worthy will the remaining life grow into something beautiful

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  • which makes the name flower eater for the darkness all the more ominous.

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