originally posted in:The Ashen Conflux
It's not the most sound theory of them all, you're seriously overselling that.
1) Dredgen Yor is (or at the bare minimum [i]was[/i]) a hunter. He has not one, but 2 hunter items named for him. How that can [i]possibly[/i] be written off as less convincing than the idea that more than 1 guardian ever went to the Moon and met Xyor simply boggles the mind. The existence of the hunter items [b]is fact[/b]. The [i]assumption[/i] that nobody but Yor ever met Xyor [b]is not[/b].
2) Rezzyl Azzir is a Titan. That's a direct quote from the grimoire and not up for debate.
3) The Hunter-specific exotic weapon is a [u]handcannon[/u]. Dredgen Yor primarily used a [u]handcannon[/u]. [i]Thorn[/i] is a [u]handcannon[/u].
4) The Titan-specific exotic weapon is an [u]auto rifle[/u]. Rezzyl Azzir primarily used an [u]auto rifle[/u]. [i]Necrochasm[/i] is an [u]auto rifle[/u].
[b][i]Two[/i] different guardians, [i]Two[/i] different weapon types that are linked to their respective classes, [i]Two[/i] different weapons of sorrow created/corrupted by the Hive.[/b]
English
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R.A used a hand cannon...it's in the grimoire for all to see. Legends and mysteries r.a. War without end.
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REZZLY is he first guardian to fall to the darkness
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Edited by The Muzzy98: 1/27/2017 3:25:04 AMSince Saint has me covered on the rest of your comment,[i] (if you're reading this, thanks bro)[/i] I want to take the time to dissect your Necrochasm theory. 1) Lets start with the fact that Xyor is never once mentioned in having any part to play in creation of the weapon, a weapon that has a connection to [b]Crota[/b]. 2) The timeline doesn't match up. Rezyl (and Yor, coincidentally[or maybe it's not a coincidence]) visited the Moon early in the City's lifetime, perhaps after Six Fronts, but definitely way before the Battle of Mare Imbrium. However, the Necrochasm was created [i]after[/i] the Great Disaster. The weapon of a deceased Guardian fell into the Hive's hands, and was changed in a Hive attempt to fuse Hive arcana and Guardian weaponry. This attempt failed and the gun became merely a Husk of the Pit. Frankly, there is no supporting evidence that the Necrochasm was created by Xyor and no evidence that it has any sort of connection to Rezyl Azzir.
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1) It's odd that she does not have a card of her own but I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that Xyor just might possibly maybe have some kind of relationship to Crota. Perhaps that's to whom she was "betrothed" (or maybe that's Yor, I have no idea) but she most definitely lives in his temple complex, so.... 2) Similarly, it's honestly preposterous to state as fact that the two Hive-created weapons of sorrow are completely unrelated. Xyor [u]obviously[/u] has something to do with Thorn and it can be readily concluded from that fact that she has an interest in corrupting human weapons. If she "created" (for lack of a better term) one weapon of sorrow, it is [u]objectively[/u] very possible she had a hand in the creation of the other. I can't say for sure that she did but to claim that she absolutely did not is simply willful ignorance. 3) Timelines are hardly set in stone in Destiny as guardians do not age and hard points of reference are rarely given. The Necrochasm card states it was "created in [u]the twilight[/u] after Crota's sword [u]first[/u] cracked the Moon". What does that mean? When he first colonized it? Or was it the great disaster? You [i]can[/i] interpret that statement to mean whichever one you like, I suppose, but the use of the words 'twilight' and 'first' says to me that it was prior to the battle of Mare Imbrium - the twilight being the period in which the Hive were quiescent and spoken of mostly as myths - the same exact myths that drove Rezzyl to explore the Moon in the first place. As an aside, I also tend to think that Rezzyl predated Yor due to the frequent references to the crucible in Yor's story plus Rezzyl being the first risen to take the title "guardian" but since we are not 100% sure when the crucible really started either I can't back it up with much more than that.
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[quote]1) It's odd that she does not have a card of her own but I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that Xyor just might possibly maybe have some kind of relationship to Crota. Perhaps that's to whom she was "betrothed" (or maybe that's Yor, I have no idea) but she most definitely lives in his temple complex, so....[/quote]Every Hive that we face on the Moon is a descendant of Oryx, if not Crota. Eris Morn tells us that Omnigul was the one who raised Crota's armies and spawn, so it's likely that she was his mate, not Xyor. [quote]2) Similarly, it's honestly preposterous to state as fact that the two Hive-created weapons of sorrow are completely unrelated. Xyor [u]obviously[/u] has something to do with Thorn and it can be readily concluded from that fact that she has an interest in corrupting human weapons. If she "created" (for lack of a better term) one weapon of sorrow, it is [u]objectively[/u] very possible she had a hand in the creation of the other. I can't say for sure that she did but to claim that she absolutely did not is simply willful ignorance. [/quote]Touch of Malice is a Weapon of Sorrow and it has no connection to either. Just Xyor created one doesn't mean she created them all. Again, there is simply [u]no evidence[/u] that Xyor had a hand in the Necrochasm's creation. Seeing as how important Xyor was in Thorn's tale, she would proababky be mentioned in Necrochasm's if she was involved. [quote]3) Timelines are hardly set in stone in Destiny as guardians do not age and hard points of reference are rarely given. The Necrochasm card states it was "created in [u]the twilight[/u] after Crota's sword [u]first[/u] cracked the Moon". What does that mean? When he first colonized it? Or was it the great disaster? You [i]can[/i] interpret that statement to mean whichever one you like, I suppose, but the use of the words 'twilight' and 'first' says to me that it was prior to the battle of Mare Imbrium - the twilight being the period in which the Hive were quiescent and spoken of mostly as myths - the same exact myths that drove Rezzyl to explore the Moon in the first place.[/quote] From a purely logical standpoint, what would Crota's reason to use his sword outside of battle, especially when battle is the [u]sole purpose[/u] of Hive Swords? We know from both The Ocean of Storms card and even more so from Ghost Fragment: The Ocean of Storms that Crota was first encountered during the Great Disaster.
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1) She's not specifically mentioned as his mate that I remember, but fair point about Omnigul. 2) The only time Xyor appears in [i]Thorn's[/i] tale is killing her during the quest. She doesn't appear in [i]Yor's[/i] tale anywhere. And there's no hard evidence about a lot of this stuff so I'm not sure why you keep emphasizing that like it inexplicably doesn't apply to the OP's conclusion that clearly [b]the most likely explanation[/b] for all of this is that Yor and Azzir are the same person. 3) When the Vanguard first encountered/knew of Crota himself is not pertinent. It's not like Yor or Azzir were specifically seeking him out, so assuming, as we both do, they did visit the Moon prior to that, somebody somewhere clearly knew or at least suspected the Hive were there, even if they didn't know who the Hive or their leader actually was.
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[quote]2) The only time Xyor appears in [i]Thorn's[/i] tale is killing her during the quest. She doesn't appear in [i]Yor's[/i] tale anywhere. And there's no hard evidence about a lot of this stuff so I'm not sure why you keep emphasizing that like it inexplicably doesn't apply to the OP's conclusion that clearly [b]the most likely explanation[/b] for all of this is that Yor and Azzir are the same person.[/quote] I never said Xyor was a part of Yor's tale. I specifically mentioned Thorn's because I'm not arguing that Rezyl is Yor (although I certainly subscribe to that theory), I'm arguing that Xyor has no connection to the creation of Necrochasm as you said it did. [quote]3) When the Vanguard first encountered/knew of Crota himself is not pertinent. It's not like Yor or Azzir were specifically seeking him out, so assuming, as we both do, they did visit the Moon prior to that, somebody somewhere clearly knew or at least suspected the Hive were there, even if they didn't know who the Hive or their leader actually was.[/quote] My main problem with this is that if Rezyl or Yor had encountered Crota, they would have surely been slain on the spot, so I find it unlikely that they met him. If, against all logic, they not only did encounter Crota [i]but also[/i] managed to escape, I feel that some mention of him would have surfaced in their respective Grimoire cards. Even Yor, who might not be inclined to warn the City, surely would have made a reference at some point. You don't simply 'forget' about something as significant as a Hive deity.
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Edited by bobswerski: 1/27/2017 6:31:35 PMOh, missed the Crota thing. Not super relevant, IMO, but consider this: Let's assume you are right and Yor would absolutely have been killed and never sent to Earth if he met Crota. That's a likely scenario. Azzir? Xyor captures him, that definitely happened. Maybe she kills him and uses his AR to make Necrochasm without Crota's involvement. Or maybe she tortures him and sacrifices his light to Crota - she does tell him: [quote]you... shall be made to suffer for your transgressions upon this holy ground[/quote] Don't forget the whole Hive tribute to feed their worms pyramid scheme. Then she uses his (Crota's) magic to finish Necrochasm and that's why we need to kill him to power it. Who knows, but the scenario in which Azzir [u]can't[/u] have met Crota is if he becomes Dredgen Yor. Meaning, if Yor = Azzir, you are probably right and he can't have met Crota. But if he's not, then Crota's involvement is no longer impossible. Once again, we see circular logic occurring. The conclusion (Azzir = Yor) is influencing your interpretation of the evidence, making it appear more certain than it otherwise is.
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Edited by bobswerski: 1/27/2017 6:06:32 PMThat's fine, I've spent waaaay too much time on this as it is so I'm stopping here. Ultimately it's all supposition but I'm mostly just making the point that there is not nearly as much [i]objective[/i] support for the Yor = Azzir theory as purported, it honestly all hinges on a (subconscious?) cognitive bias that says that Yor [u]must[/u] be another character in the grimoire, when he does not. One you realize that to be true, the argument appears much weaker. Look at it this way. Ever play the game Clue? There's what, 6 people? One of them has to be the murderer. There are literally no other possibilities, right? So lets say it's down to colonel mustard or miss scarlett. They killed the dude with the candlestick. Miss Scarlett has the only candlestick so she did it. Back to Destiny. Killing the dude = being Dredgen Yor. The candlestick is meeting Xyor. Miss Scarlett is Rezzyl Azzir and Col Mustard is, I dunno, Cayde or whoever, doesn't matter. If you can [u]only[/u] choose between Azzir and Cayde, then yes, Rezzyl Azzir is definitely Dredgen Yor. [b] But we don't have to[/b]. That's a false choice people have made for themselves. Not only are there more than 2 suspects, we don't even know how many suspects exist, much less [i]who[/i] they are or if any of them have candlesticks. The odds of them being the same person decrease dramatically simply by removing that one part of the equation that's been added retroactively. [u]Every[/u] relevant story in the lore stays internally consistent if Yor's "secret" identity is a name we have never or will never hear. If his real name was Xx1337Sniper420xX, nothing changes other than maybe my opinion of the quality of the writing. The story still makes perfect sense, there are no plot holes that we need to fill, and no dots that haven't been connected.
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Edited by The Muzzy98: 1/27/2017 6:49:40 PMI'll say this yet again. I am not arguing that Rezyl Azzir is Yor. [b]I am arguing that Rezyl's AR and Xyor were never involved on any way with Necrochasm's creation. [/b] Just because you don't agree with the theory that Rezyl is Yor doesn't mean that you are immune to bias. I would argue the opposite. You have made several connections that are a huge stretch [u]at best.[/u] For example, the idea that Rezyl encountered Crota. There is no reference, nor even the tiniest hint of Crota's involvement. You are taking the fact that he encountered Hive and running with it to assume that Crota must be involved. You assume that because Xyor was key in the creation of Thorn that she creates [i]all[/i] of the Weapons of Sorrow. You assume that because Rezyl was using an auto rifle when he encountered Xyor, it [u]must[/u] be the Necrochasm. I will admit that I completely agree with the Rezyl=Yor theory and you may even be correct that I am unwilling to accept outside views [i]to a certain degree[/i]. But you're doing the exact same thing, except that you're on the opposite side! You seem to refuse to even [i]entertain[/i] my counter arguments solely based on the fact that we disagree in the previous identity of Dredgen Yor, and you've even tried to steer the conversation towards that point several times. I know that everyone is entitled to their opinion, and as human beings, we are naturally inclined to argue them and convince others that our is correct. But you and I have stooped to the same point; neither is in higher ground here.
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Edited by bobswerski: 1/27/2017 7:37:43 PMWell sure, if I didn't believe it I wouldn't debate it like this. Regardless, I refer back to Yor=Rezzyl because it's the subject of the OP. I would think it's relevant, since what I was originally saying is that it's not clearly the most likely explanation as the OP suggests and you steered it away. But I digress. The comparison being, I argue there are at least as many unsupported assumptions in that conclusion as there is in mine. So if you believe it to be likely, as you do, you are absolutely entitled to that opinion but realize that there is [i]at least[/i] enough uncertainty there that you should be careful when you want to start making that kind of definitive statement about the impossibility of something else happening or there being "no evidence whatsoever". Do I have proof that Xyor made Necrochasm? No. Do you have proof she didn't? No. A similar statement can be made about Yor = Azzir.
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Are you trying too hustle us sweetheart?
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You are the bane of my clans existence
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Edited by bobswerski: 1/27/2017 6:33:26 PMI'm just taking [u]all[/u] the pieces of the puzzle and making the best fit like anyone else. I may be right, I may be wrong, but there are [u]a lot[/u] of assumptions and exceptions that need to be made in order to have Rezzyl Azzir become Dredgen Yor. My main problem is that people assign a great deal of certainty to these theories where none actually exists. If the best you have is "[i]Dredgen Yor was a Titan because the guy [u]I want[/u] to be him is a Titan and the hunter cloak named after him is because he killed a hunter and stole his cloak even though it isn't named for that hunter, that doesn't matter because reasons.[/i]" then your theory needs more work, sorry. And that's pretty much what most of this boils down to in the end. edit: lol, nice downvote. I would think someone in a lore-focused clan might have a more open mind or at least be able to deal with a dissenting opinion better.
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Goddamn boy he still at it
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Frankly there's no supporting evidence that Dredgen Yor is a Titan or stole Pahanins cloak either so I don't see your point.
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Funny, how I never brought up any of that in my comment. All I said was that there is no way Xyor or Rezyl Azzir have any relation to the Necrochasm and I explained my reasonings. My sources are the Grimoire cards Rezyl Azzir: Before These Walls, Legends and Mysteries: Rezyl Azzir, and Necrochasm.
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Edited by bobswerski: 1/27/2017 5:00:36 AMBut you did mention saint, who did. And to say there's no way Xyor could be related to the Necrochasm is opinion, plain and simple. You have nothing to remotely back up such a bold claim.
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[quote]But you did mention saint, who did. And to say there's no way Xyor could be related to the Necrochasm is opinion, plain and simple. You have nothing to remotely back up such a bold claim.[/quote] Glad I caught your edit. I'd like to counter with the exact same sentence. You have nothing to remotely back up such a bold claim. I listed my sources, which clearly set up the time that Rezyl lived in, his connection to Xyor, and how the Necrochasm came to be.
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In which case, you should address your comment to him and not me, as he argued for the Rezyl=Yor standpoint.
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Saladin wears a cape, warlocks run around with a titan helmet as an artifact, and Felwinter used Hunter armor despite being a Warlock. The existence and limitation of class specific items is a gameplay mechanic, nothing in the lore establishes it as a rule. Using class exotic weapons is also a weak argument. The Warlock class exotic weapon is a scout rifle, i suppose that weans that the Bad Juju must be a scout rifle then since the Warlock Toland made it? Also, Rezyl did weild a handcanon. His second card specifically mentions him using one as a sidearm.
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Well, Bad Juju is actually made from the frame of a scout rifle, so...
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Edited by bobswerski: 1/27/2017 10:24:43 PMA cape isn't a hunter cloak, unlike the cloak of Dredgen Yor (apparently), Segoths head is still named after Segoth, Yor used a hand cannon a hell of a lot more than once, and bad jujus frame [u]is[/u] a scout rifle.
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Just because there is only one mention in the grimoire of Rezyl using a hand cannon doesn't mean that that was the only time he ever used one. He would have been involved in many fights and battles that are not described in the grimoire. Clearly he was capable of switching between using an auto rifle and a hand cannon when necessary. Moreover, it's highly unlikely that he would have bothered carrying a hand cannon with him if he was only going to use it once, or only occasionally.
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And the weapon he was using when he encountered Xyor was...?