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originally posted in:The Ashen Conflux
originally posted in: The Speaker's Story
1/13/2017 7:04:41 PM
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[quote]First, we already know the Speaker is a Guardian because he has a Ghost, he is strong with the Light, and he has lived hundreds and hundreds of years.[/quote] We dont know this. There has always been a Speaker, but that doesn't mean THE Speaker. [quote]The Speaker was one of the first chosen by the Traveler to rise from the grave.[/quote] Relative to the rest, since he was around with Osiris and Six Fronts. That doesn't mean he came before the Iron Lords, though. [quote]He was there when the City Age began, and stood amongst ranks of Risen/Guardians...[/quote] You don't know this. The first frame of reference is Six Fronts, not Dark Ages. [quote]The Speaker came to be in a Guardian in a time where almost no one knew how to use their Light for combat purposes[/quote] The Speaker came in a time when they literally ONLY knew how to use their Light for combat. It wasn't until Osiris that they started to question "why?" and develop the Light. [quote]The closest guess we have to the Speaker's Class is Titan because of how he took a place in defense of the City in these early days[/quote] So Osiris, a known Warlock, is also a Titan because he fought in Six Fronts? The Speaker is the Speaker. A classless charlatan. Warlock if you must give a title. [quote]As for the Speaker's race...[/quote] That's what I would argue. Didn't address the Awoken face people claim to see when glitching in, though. [quote]When the Faction Wars began, the soon-to-be-Speaker was at the head of the charge, telling Guardians that they were not meant to oppress the citizens of the City and war against each other.[/quote] Literally where tbh [quote]The Speaker proved himself to be one to look up to during the Faction Wars.[/quote] Literally where tbqhwyf (to be quite honest with you fam) [quote]When the Faction Wars ended, the Guardians and citizens collectively decided to create the Consensus, Vanguard, and the position of Speaker.[/quote] Only the Consensus. The whole idea behind the Speaker is that he has been there forever. Tradition is what keeps the charlatan in power. The very nature behind him is theology - which continues in power because "thats the way its always been done" [quote]The citizens chose a specific few amongst the City to represent them, while the Guardians chose one for each Class to represent them, and then it came to the decision of who would represent the Traveler.[/quote] Literally where. Consensus has only shown signs of choosing themselves (with the faction representation) and the Vanguard are on it - which mind you has also only shown signs of recommendation where Osiris was appointed Vanguard Commander due to Saint. [quote]he was the best choice, and was elected to his position.[/quote] Literally where. Osiris was a much better choice and the Speaker reached power by already being in power. Theology. [quote]The Speaker now wears his mask so that people will not view him as a man[/quote] On the outside this would be the Speaker's answer, but it also serves as a way to hide his face - for more selfish reasons. [quote]The Dreams of Alpha Lupi... This is because the Speaker is the one who writes them.[/quote] LITERALLY WHERE [quote]The Traveler transmits its thoughts to the Speaker as can only be compared to sharing a dream or vision, and the Speaker then records them as one would write an event told to them by a friend[/quote] This is what the Speaker wants you to believe, but is in fact false. The Speaker is a charlatan, never forget that. [quote]because the Traveler is called Alpha Lupi[/quote] Again, literally where. This was started by Anonpig back in 2014. The dude was a resident egotist and lesser known idiot. The only reference to Alpha Lupi in Destiny outside of the ARG Grimoire (Dreams of Alpha Lupi) is to the real life Alpha Lupi star. [quote]The two grew closer than almost any other Guardians had, and though they had no way to tell if they were related or not, they became like family.[/quote] Brainwashing will do that [quote]Father and Son (nothing to do with religious structure).[/quote] Is that a fact? The symbol of theology in Destiny and the City's Pope calling Saint-14, someone who treats Light like a religion and goes on Crusades and literally has SAINT in the name, his Son has no religious context considering they are not biologically related? [quote]The Speaker awaits the day his adopted son will return to him from Mercury[/quote] Which he sent to kill Osiris. If he truly cared he wouldn't send him to kill the only person trying to save humanity. [quote]whether or not he manages to convince Osiris to come back to the City with him.[/quote] KILL. There is no convincing. The only two possibilties here is that Osiris killed Saint or Saint reached Mercury and the visions showed him the truth.
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  • I feel like your reply had nearly as much speculation as OP

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  • It probably sounds like that because I didn't cite anything (because I'm criticizing). Point something specific out and I'll fight you

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  • "The speaker is a charlatan" for example

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  • Its biased, but not speculation in the formal sense "Ask yourself, what would you do if the Speaker was proven a charlatan" -Brother Vance I would have to prove Osiris is the correct side, but after that it isn't speculation.

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  • "after I prove something it's not speculation" ok but you can't prove it, therefore it's still speculation for the time being. That answer was meaningless.

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  • "Osiris is the correct side" is the speculation. If that can be accepted, then the rest is true.

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  • But until that fundamental piece is proven it's ALL speculation. Again meaningless.

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  • A theory is just as good as a law in most cases. I'm really trying to avoid needing to explain the entire thing.

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  • In science, yes. Scientific theory doesn't apply here.

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  • He poses a hypothetical question, I'd hardly say that makes it more than speculation

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  • Its more about the ideological side, there is obviously more to it than that. Osiris/Vance talk constantly about how the Speaker is not qualified and isn't helping. That is where the word charlatan is directly used.

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  • Also "Osiris was a better choice" is 100% pure opinion at this point. And

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  • See other. Avoiding explaining the whole thing, but in Osiris v Speaker it is true. 100%.

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  • Based on nothing but your own opinion. There is nothing in the grimoire, to my knowledge, that states explicitly or implicitly that Osiris is somehow objectively better.

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  • Explicit statements dont exist. Go to the other post, I'm centering.

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  • [quote]Explicit statements dont exist.[/quote] What the -blam!- are you smoking

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  • Not in the grimoire. Sweeping generalization to say, maybe. Go to other post to centralize the conversation to one subthread.

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  • Yes but Osiris was at odds with the Speaker, therefore it is a biased "source" if you will.

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  • Osiris was only against him ideologically, he didn't hate the guy.

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  • Conservatives and liberals are at odds with each other ideologically and the majority don't hate each other. Yet I wouldn't trust a liberal piece on gun crime, nor would I trust a conservative piece on homosexuality. Bias is bias.

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  • I'm going to center this onto one reply. What do you know currently about Osiris?

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  • I'm not arguing for or against Osiris OR the Speaker, I'm just pointing out that what you've said is mostly speculation and opinion that you're portraying as objective truth or very near it at the least.

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  • I'm glad someone put so much work into a reply. 1. You do see the Ghost that is paired with the Speaker and floats next to him, right? And I know this is inferring a lot, but the grimoire says "Speaker's" rather than "Speakers'". It's singular. And who else but a Guardian would have any form of connection with the Light? 2. Most of the Guardians at Six Fronts were among the first, although I honestly can't say if the Speaker was resurrected before or after the Iron Lords were because they were both so early on. However, I have determined that the Faction Wars came before Six Fronts because it was the Fallen moving against the City that led to the end of the Faction Wars, and since the Iron Lords formed before Six Fronts that means that the Speaker is at least as old as the Lords. 3. Look at all The City grimoires in the Places section, and you will see Golden Age, Dark Age, then City Age. Six Fronts occurred early in the City Age. 4. It wasn't until Twilight Gap that Guardians learned to use their Light for Supers and such, and before that they only used it for physical enhancement. You are correct about Osiris asking "why" since he was amongst the first that became known as Warlocks. 5. Well that's one way to twist my words to a completely different meaning. I didn't say that every Guardian who resided in the City or defended it was a Titan, I said those who naturally had the strong dedication to and skill for defending its walls and being the muscle of the Guardians were Titans. Osiris obviously was one of those who studied the Light and Darkness and became a Warlock, as I've already said. 6. I've never heard of the Awoken face glitch, but as you said, it's a glitch, not cannon. Give me one piece of evidence suggesting that the Speaker would be Awoken or human. 7. I'm assuming by "literally where" you're asking where this came from. I found a Bungie Destiny cite awhile back with the history of the City that went over the Speaker, but unfortunately I hav been unable to find it again. I search for it even now so I can link it but am sorry that I can't back my views appropriately. 8. This again refers back to the cite I found, sorry again. Although his grimoire clearly states that he had a strong connection with the Light so it make sense that others would look up to him anyway. 9. The Speaker, Vanguard, and Consensus are all there so that the citizens and Guardians have representatives. There was no democracy before the Faction Wars, only factions competing for dominance, so you're telling me that before the City had any representatives of any kind, it had representatives for the Guardians and the Traveler? 10. Saying there has always been a Speaker is not literal, otherwise it would mean there was a Speaker before the Traveler even came; it means the Speaker has been a position for a long time, such as since the Faction Wars ended centuries ago. Read the grimoire called The City: City Age, it clearly shows that te Consensus, Vanguard, and Speaker must all agree for tasks such as letting a new Faction rep into the Tower. 11. How would Osiris be a better choice, and why would they remove the Speaker from his position to let someone else take it if he's been doing good at his job? 12. Selfish reasons such as? There are absolutely no benefits to wearing a mask, it doesn't matter if people know his identity because they know exactly where the Speaker is every single day: at his desk, working to better the City. 13. This Alpha Lupi stuff is speculation, that should've been blatantly obvious since nobody knows what they truly are. I just said it seems to me like the Traveler is Alpha Lupi since each of these dreams speak of the Traveler; that does still leave the possibility that the Speaker could be Alpha Lupi though. 14. Then who the heck wrote the Dreams of Alpha Lupi? And is there any evidence at all that the Speaker has ever mislead us? 15. Again, speculation that either the Traveler or Speaker is Alpha Lupi. So far it's rather evident that you do know a lot about the grimoires, but your interpretations of them clearly lean towards conspiracy. If AnonPig is so clueless, how come his theories are widely accepted and he knows the lore at least as well as you do? Have you actually thought about that star reference? A star radiates light and brings life to the words it's warmth touches: Traveler, clearly. 16. You do realize that the Speaker and Saint weren't isolated with each other, right? There were always other people around. 17. It's true that the Speaker is viewed as a Pope-like figure by those who follow the Traveler religiously, but to those who don't follow the Traveler religiously he is just the communicator for an extraterrestrial being. Why would having the name Saint mean that he's blindly religious? Bad assumption. Has anyone else besides Saint ever called the Speaker father? No. And in the Saint-14 grimoire father and son are not capitalized, which means they are not titles. 18. They never said that Saint sought to kill Osiris, although it is the most likely option. Osiris does work to save humanity, but in a way looked down upon by other Guardians because he puts himself close to the Darkness. Osiris isn't the only one trying to see humanity through these dark times; the Vanguard, the Consensus, many of the Factions, almost all Guardians, and even some of the Awoken see that humanity must prevail. 19. You missed at least a dozen other possibilities for Saint's fate. Guardians only kill each other if absolutely necessary, and Osiris has not proven his death necessary as far as we know. Saint could be dead by the hands of the Vex, dead by the hands of Osiris, lost amongst the network of Mercury, lost literally anywhere throughout space and time (because Vex networks!), captured by Osiris, working with Osiris (low possibility), or killed by any of the numerous amounts of enemies he could have encountered through te Vex gates. Going to Mercury does not give you visions, that doesn't make any sense. Osiris has his visions because he sets his mind adrift into the Void just as thanatonauts and Mara Sov do, not everyone who goes to Mercury receives visions or "enlightenment". Well you made 19 different points about my post, good job, but I wouldn't say good quality. You did point out to me that I forgot to add that I used a few other grimoires, that I forgot to mention my website source that I'm trying to locate, and that I forgot to mention that a few of these points were speculation. However, you took a few things that I directly said were speculation and you accused me of stating them as fact, twisted some of my words, and you insulted another member of our community.

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  • Edited by Qwerty: 1/14/2017 5:28:37 PM
    [quote]1. You do see the Ghost that is paired with the Speaker and floats next to him[/quote] Warlock, then, not Titan. [quote]2. Most of the Guardians at Six Fronts were among the first, although I honestly can't say if the Speaker was resurrected before or after the Iron Lords were because they were both so early on...[/quote] The point I was arguing had more to do with the wording, simply because I had to argue every point. Six Fronts was the first battle in the City's history, which they unrealistically won. Then we have the same circumstances at the Twilight Gap but we lose - Speaker blames Osiris, Foundries up their game, ect. [quote]4. It wasn't until Twilight Gap that Guardians learned to use their Light for Supers and such, and before that they only used it for physical enhancement. You are correct about Osiris asking "why" since he was amongst the first that became known as Warlocks.[/quote] Someone should read the Iron Lord grimoire then, where they clearly used Supers. Twilight Gap was when everyone upped their game, but we didn't gain anything in the Light department until the Crucible (might have lost stuff, considering the banning of Osiris). Its more than Osiris being a Warlock. He became a cult of personality toward understanding what we fought and why we did it. [quote]5. Well that's one way to twist my words to a completely different meaning. I didn't say that every Guardian who resided in the City or defended it was a Titan, I said those who naturally had the strong dedication to and skill for defending its walls and being the muscle of the Guardians were Titans. Osiris obviously was one of those who studied the Light and Darkness and became a Warlock, as I've already said.[/quote] Its a logic train. Speaker can't be a Titan just because he was defending the City in Six Fronts (if that is what this is refering to, I don't want to click out of my post because I would have to copy paste it all back in) [quote]6. I've never heard of the Awoken face glitch, but as you said, it's a glitch, not cannon. Give me one piece of evidence suggesting that the Speaker would be Awoken or human.[/quote] Speaker is probably human, it makes the most sense given the timeframe. [quote]7. I'm assuming by "literally where" you're asking where this came from. I found a Bungie Destiny cite awhile back with the history of the City that went over the Speaker, but unfortunately I hav been unable to find it again. I search for it even now so I can link it but am sorry that I can't back my views appropriately.[/quote] I've been here since 2013 reading every piece of official information that came out. I can tell you stories about how the Cabal were the original Twilight Gap invaders but there is nothing like this on the Speaker. You read someone else's words, be it an incorrect wiki or a youtube video. [quote]9. The Speaker, Vanguard, and Consensus are all there so that the citizens and Guardians have representatives. There was no democracy before the Faction Wars, only factions competing for dominance, so you're telling me that before the City had any representatives of any kind, it had representatives for the Guardians and the Traveler?[/quote] There has always been a Speaker [quote]10. Saying there has always been a Speaker is not literal, otherwise it would mean there was a Speaker before the Traveler even came; it means the Speaker has been a position for a long time, such as since the Faction Wars ended centuries ago. Read the grimoire called The City: City Age, it clearly shows that te Consensus, Vanguard, and Speaker must all agree for tasks such as letting a new Faction rep into the Tower.[/quote] The Pope is a Speaker. Special connection with a god that he then speaks on behalf of. The idea is simply that the Speaker was never chosen, he has always been there. [quote]11. How would Osiris be a better choice, and why would they remove the Speaker from his position to let someone else take it if he's been doing good at his job?[/quote] He hasn't been doing good at his job. Traveler is still in sleep mode and he has said nothing of value. Osiris has been directly involved in luring out Oryx, the Skolas crisis, and he constantly invites Guardians to be forged in the heat of Trials.[/quote] [quote]12. Selfish reasons such as? There are absolutely no benefits to wearing a mask, it doesn't matter if people know his identity because they know exactly where the Speaker is every single day: at his desk, working to better the City.[/quote] I dunno, I'm arguing every point. Shame? Hiding the fact he is an evil being of darkness? More likely, its his way of seeming more powerful than he is. No signs of his humanity because that makes him seem less godly. Whereas his counterpart Osiris wears (unless they changed it since 2013) simple robes.[/quote] [quote]13. This Alpha Lupi stuff is speculation, that should've been blatantly obvious since nobody knows what they truly are. I just said it seems to me like the Traveler is Alpha Lupi since each of these dreams speak of the Traveler; that does still leave the possibility that the Speaker could be Alpha Lupi though.[/quote] Then you can't say it as fact. The other possibility is that the Traveler simply came from the Alpha Lupi direction. [quote]14. Then who the heck wrote the Dreams of Alpha Lupi? And is there any evidence at all that the Speaker has ever mislead us?[/quote] Dreams of Alpha Lupi were an ARG describing each planet being changed by the Traveler. They could simply be in the point of view of the Traveler, no has to write them. A similar style, Rasputin's one about I ALONE, was simply Raspy's point of view talking. [quote]15. Again, speculation that either the Traveler or Speaker is Alpha Lupi. So far it's rather evident that you do know a lot about the grimoires, but your interpretations of them clearly lean towards conspiracy.[/quote] If its speculation, make that clear. My interpretation leans toward conspiracy because I believe in philosophy not rhetoric. The connections and thinking could be constantly stated, but I dont. Thus it sounds conspiracy-like. [quote]If AnonPig is so clueless, how come his theories are widely accepted and he knows the lore at least as well as you do?[/quote] He doesn't. Trust me, I witnessed his reign of 2013/2014 before he moved to youtube and died. He took a grain of something and then stuck fake filler information and ego-building fluff. He is single-handedly responsible for all of the early misinformation. He called Toland a woman as late as 2016 and he misinterpreted Skolas, Osiris and several other things. He even got what the hologram on the RoI map was wrong. Take anything he wrote in 2014 and then use the information we know now - over 40% of the page will be wrong (and the rest will be ego building fluff or copy and pastes of the grimoire). /end rant [quote]17. It's true that the Speaker is viewed as a Pope-like figure by those who follow the Traveler religiously, but to those who don't follow the Traveler religiously he is just the communicator for an extraterrestrial being.[/quote] To those that don't he is still the Pope, he just holds less power. [quote]Why would having the name Saint mean that he's blindly religious? Bad assumption. Has anyone else besides Saint ever called the Speaker father? No. And in the Saint-14 grimoire father and son are not capitalized, which means they are not titles.[/quote] The name Saint isn't what means that. The way he acts and what he does shows that he treats it like a religion, the fact he is super powerful means it works. Osiris talked about a blind-knight mentality that all Guardians seem to have hard wired into them. Saint is literally a blinding knight. Also "Is that you, my son?” says Priest faster than father. Also [quote]The Speaker’s voice was filled more with anticipation of news than concern.[/quote] Fatherly. [quote]...down upon by other Guardians because he puts himself close to the Darkness...[/quote] Guardians loved him, he was a cult of personality. After the Speaker exiled him many followed with their feet, and those that didn't followed with their hearts. They [i]loved[/i] him. [quote]Osiris isn't the only one trying to see humanity through these dark times; the Vanguard, the Consensus, many of the Factions, almost all Guardians, and even some of the Awoken see that humanity must prevail.[/quote] The Vanguard and Consensus are doing pointless strikes that will mean nothing if we don't understand the true nature behind thing. Same goes with the factions, albeit lesser. Awoken are working with Osiris. [quote]Going to Mercury does not give you visions, that doesn't make sense...not everyone who goes to Mercury receives visions or "enlightenment".[/quote] Have you read the Lighthouse grimoire? Three New Monarchy guardians, one of each race, goes to collect their flawless chest. Everyone has visions, including their ghost. Thanonautics has more to do with piercing the Veil of Isis. Also, I googled some of the stuff you cited without a source and got [url=http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2015/08/24/what-s-going-on-in-destiny-s-story-anyway.aspx?]Gameinformer[/url]. Which, ironically, is chalk full of wrong information. They even say the Crucible was started Post-Six Fronts despite the grimoire literally saying Twilight Gap.

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  • Jeez, could have just scrolled by. Seems this post made you a bit angry.....literally

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