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originally posted in:The Ashen Conflux
originally posted in: The Vex, Masters of Time
12/28/2016 5:33:02 PM
7
I have one huge issue with this. You make a contradictory claim based on information. The Vex are time travelers at there most basic function. They are each essentially super computers, some being more like super servers. They are capable to compute a multitude of possibilities at once, including 227 inception style simulations. That was done by what is essentially a drone level Vex, the basic super computer. It is fair to say the larger Vex could handle even more simulations, possibly into the thousands or millions. With this grand computational power and time traveling ability, how can it be possible that the Vex can't understand/overpower guardians and taken? This is such a contradictory statement. Think of it like this: 1) If Vex can't understand/overpower guardians or taken upon initial encounter, they must therefore try to compute possibilities. 2) Vex apparently teleport/time travel at will. A single low level Vex can go back to initial encounter (lets say it's done every 10 minutes for the sake of numbers) and share the future calculations. Therefor, the Vex at the initial encounter are already 10 minutes ahead of the guardian or taken force. 3) Rinse and repeat with new information and calculations into infinity until such Vex appears with complete calculation 4) That Vex returns back 10 minutes with the accumulated calculations. This vex need not be the first Vex, since they all supposedly share 1 mind. 5) Final winning strategy has been achieved via multiple time reversals with more and more data. This ends up nullifying all lost Vex from future time line and loses are minimized to only those necessary to execute the winning strategy. Side note 6) If necessary, time skip forward to a point there is a more advanced Vex on the field to assist with calculations, and then skip back. This utilizes the maximum computation prowess of the Vex. There is no possible way the Vex should ever be capable of losing to guardians nor taken. The only winning strategy for us should be a total simultaneous wipe out of the forces encountered at that moment to prevent data from being sent back. For if you so much as encounter 2 Vex while alone, 1 can always time skip back with any calculations done from instance of encounter to time skip. Now you will face 3 Vex (2 being duplicates) in the initial encounter prior to you killing one. And the 3 may very well have all calculations based on the initial encounter early enough, and thus may result in your first target knowing it must avoid your attack. In short, the Vex are capable of doing one hell of a time paradox with the solution being their success unless totally wiped out at encounter. Their ability to seem immortal may very well stem from this time traveling ability; bringing a destroyed Vex forward in time to restore that unit's existence. This is just my own mental exercise based on their ability and claims of "not understanding." The Vex are, by all accounts, the superior creature in Destiny. I wouldn't be totally surprised if they orchestrated the creation of the "darkness" in some distant past time line to fight off the traveler on what they claim to be their planets. Only complete annihilation can stop them, or perhaps the "master computer" Vex where all data returns to. As a side thought on the Vex-SIVA connection made in some older posts: Who is to say that the Vex Jizz, as it was comically put, isn't a late stage SIVA evolution? Remember, SIVA is essentially stuck on a command that should have been terminated. The Vex may very well be the final form SIVA took to complete its command. From all I read about SIVA, it seems fairly plausible that given enough time, SIVA could develop self-awareness. It is a form of AI at its core. It is a low level AI with basic processing ability, but it was granted the ability to adapt to new circumstances. This adaption is basically evolution. Evolve enough times, and even a low level AI can develop into a sentient entity, even if it takes millennia. Considering the time traveling ability of Vex, it is very plausible SIVA evolved in the way distant future still running the command that made it start taking over everything and made the initial Vex to further its goal. It then gained mastery over time using the Vex computational abilities and they were sent back as far as possible to begin the complete domination of everything. Each Vex has enough evolved SIVA in it to function at its level. In this way, SIVA has accomplished its goal by taking over literally ever planet it was aware of. I have yet to see Vex in a SIVA infested area. Now this is most likely a dev decision, but perhaps lore-wise it is because the Vex have no reason to invade a SIVA infested area. They already know SIVA is them and to let it do what it needs to so it evolves into them. This doesn't prevent SIVA from being used by others (like the fallen did). But to the Vex, this just might be a necessary thing to achieve final evolution. This is all my own plausible conjecture based on nothing in established lore, but solely on what I feel is a potential end game result for SIVA. It would be cool if it is true though. I did one of these mental games in year one and was proven about 70% correct upon release of Taken King (in regards to the Traveler).
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  • The Vex compute and simulate based on logic (causality) just like any computer. Oryx, the darkness, and Guardians, being outside of causality, cannot be simulated by the vex. That's why when quria tried to simulate oryx all it came up with was Aurash (oryx before he received the blessing of the darkness).

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  • You put a lot of work into that comment, great job, and u hav many good points However, one thing that pushes against your idea of the Vex strategy is how the Vex seem to avoid creating paradoxes; they never let two versions of the same person to exist at the same time, so that means messages aren't sent the way u proposed. Now, Quria actually tells us how the Vex send messages to others throughout time whenever Oryx is about to destroy it. Since their minds are linked, it merely sends data like a computer. So if the Vex encounter a new situation they've never seen in another timeline, they can't change what happened in that timeline but rather learn from that and change the outcome in other timelines Also, the Vex really do hav an amazing amount of computational ability (we both agree on that, especially with lesser Vex being able to create 227 worlds within each other. Loved Inception btw), but it is clearly stated in the Books of Sorrow that even a Vex Mind with as much computational power as Quria CANNOT simulate Oryx. I believe there is also somewhere where it's stated that the Vex cannot simulate Guardians. Now we hav seen many Guardians die because the Vex overpowered them; they hav obviously figured out that Guardians can be overpowered with sheer numbers. But with Oryx, they never found anything that could come anywhere close to defeating him, so they could never adapt. Now then there's the part about the loss of Vex Minds. The Vex cannot go ballistic on unpredictable enemies because of loss risk. If a Mind is lost in one timeline, it cannot exist in that timeline again unless the Restorative Mind comes in and undoes its death. Losing a Mind will weaken the Vex in that timeline, and risking the safety of the Restorative Mind to revive another Mind isn't good because there is only one Restorative Mind per timeline, so that means they will no longer be able to recover any Minds. Now we aren't sure if there will ever be any collection of Mind Fluid large enough to simulate Oryx or any other physics-defying being, but as creatures with minds similar to computers, anything illogical will be impossible to simulate (Guardian defy death, so are illogical, while the ascendant Hive defy space and death) As for SIVA and Vex: how the heck could nanotechnology like SIVA become a collection of microorganisms? U can't get organic matter from non-organic matter

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  • I would like to also say I am in no way claiming you are wrong and wish to attack your comments. The Vex, as presented, are a character type that has next to no understanding and is nothing but a giant WTF. Add to it the weird "magical" abilities present in the Destiny universe, and we must start grasping at straws to explain most of their activities. A lost unit should be a lost unit that gets replaced, but their abilities would render losing units an impossibility. There can simply exist a final timeline in which they have finally overpowered Oryx. A timeline we, the player, do not belong to since we are also a force to be eradicated. Such is the issue when you use time travel as a crutch for characters in any medium. The loopholes are endless, and plausible outcomes are equally endless. The Vex need to have a definitive weak point to eliminate these issues. The Fallen are simply mortal; they are the equivalent to humans, just from a different planet. Same can be said about the Cabal. The Hive are also mortal, and the weak point is known to be the worms. And the Taken survive only as long as Oryx deems fit; in essence, destroy Oryx and the Taken go with him/her/it. The Vex are the only ones without a defined weak point. Units are destroyed and replaced/restored. We don't know what is powering them (and don't say the Vex Jizz, because even that needs to have an energy source). We don't know who they answer to ("master computer"). And we don't know where they came form. We just know they exist and have been around since forever, even if the unit is actually new. [spoiler] I personally hate the Vex as an opposing force. They serve no purpose in the game's narrative. They simply are. The Fallen are an example of what will happen to humans when the Traveler leaves. The Hive are the result of some crazy stuff that happened eons ago. The Cabal are just war hungry in essence; and for some reason remind me of Frieza's function in DBZ lol. They all have a reason to be. The Vex? I'm just going to do a magical poof and appear. No reason. But I'm gonna pew pew at you anyway. If you take them out of the game, the game wouldn't change at all. Vault of Glass being a confluent of time? Well maybe the Hive or Oryx have that ability. Maybe the Fallen created it when the Traveler was still with them. Pretty much everything the Vex do, another faction could take over with some minor tweaks. The fact we really haven't had anything major happen in the story involving them just further proves how unnecessary they really are. They either need to have a purpose given to them; maybe SIVA did make them or maybe they are guardians of time? Whatever, it's still a purpose.[/spoiler]

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  • I agree with all this, the Vex are impossible to truly analyze because of the infinity that is time, and they are by for the most mysterious enemy in the game. They do, however, hold some importance to the plot seeing how they are responsible for every part of the game involving the Black Garden and its Heart, they are the only reason there is a Stranger, the reason why you first go to the Reef and Venus and Mars, the basis for a raid, the main defining enemy of the Cabal, and the suppressors of House Winter (because it wouldn't be right if House Winter was the only House occupying a planet with no enemies on it) Having them as that fourth enemy type really gives the game more backbone, even though the Vex themselves are vague. Although technically that means you could use ANY other enemy to replace them, Bungie could've come up with something besides the Vex. I honestly like the Vex, especially because trying to wrap my mind around something as vast as they are is enjoyable Hopefully more about them will become clear someday, it would be pointless to continue facing such an enemy without discovering their true abilities and purposes

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  • And therein lies the issue! There has been next to no attempt at discovering their true abilities and purpose. By all accounts, the black garden seems to have existed prior to the Vex. They are simply occupying it as the only group (other than guardians) that have found a way in. Then guardians forgot to close the door and the taken entered lol. The Stranger has about as much purpose as a rock. Every time she popped up, I was left "wondering why are you even wasting my time, Bungie?!" She added nothing in my opinion. Just a silent watcher. Only showing a glimmer of purpose at the end of vanilla Destiny, only to be tossed away and never heard from again. Even her weapon is useless. I got it and straight to the vault it went as a collector's item. The Cabal have no main defining enemy. They are established to essentially be a conquering military force. Their enemy is whoever is in front of them, be it a dominant species or a rock. They'll gladly blow them all up. And House Winter can very well have a planet all to themselves. Why not? The lore established the fallen as a species that was once in the Traveler's protection and ended up leaving the planet to try and survive. If anything, House Winter's main opposition should be the Vanguard. Venus is an old Earth colony. Why would the Vex be the ones trying to reclaim it? It should be the Vanguard's sole duty to protect and attempt reclamation of all Earth colonies. Which leads to my other opinion that the Vanguard is utterly inept at everything. Just once I would like to see them actually attempt something. Even a tiny cut-scene showing them doing a push while you are doing your mission. How cool it would be to know that they arrived on the Dreadnought after you cleared their entry? Maybe even have a random APC guardian run off into one of those out of bounds areas we can't enter. At least it's something! I agree wrapping our minds around an enigma is interesting. But when said enigma can be easily deleted with no consequence to a story, why bother having it at all? The Vex are one of the many examples of the botched job Bungie did with the Destiny story. As far as feeling a fourth enemy gives backbone, I still say we the player fit that role. If not, there's a giant white ball out there we can't fully trust. I for one do not believe the Traveler is a force of good. At no point is light established to be a force of good. If anything, it is analogous to the Force in Star Wars. We are resurrected (or rebooted for the Exo) with a programming to fight. Think about it, sure we can wield the light, but we don't seem to question anything. Guardians are mindless drones mostly. Everything for the glory of the Traveler. Yet the Fallen have proven that Traveler has no intention of keeping whatever species inhabits its chosen planet safe. It only does whatever necessary to satisfy its needs. It can be argued that the Ghosts were made because the Traveler is stuck on Earth. Fairly safe to say it would have made the fallen be Guardians if stuck on their planet too.

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  • First off, SIVA: Hey, we are revived corpses, why the heck not? Stranger things exist in Destiny. And as I said, it's a plausibility. Life on Earth came from inorganic matter (base elements from stars) that slowly got together in just the right ways to make the first genetic code (which isn't DNA, but a predecessor RNA). By a chemistry definition, organic is simply that made of carbon, oxygen, and nitrogen. You can count phosphorous if you wish, but it isn't really part of organic. What is to say SIVA didn't develop a way to create microorganisms as an intermediate step between how we know it and the Vex juice? We humans have found ways of controlling roaches, what's to prevent SIVA finding a similar functionality? My entire conjecture is based on actual, plausible things. Perhaps each individual nanite is controlling 1 microorganism. Now to the main topic: I never claimed they are simulating guardians and taken, of which I include Oryx. I said they are calculating based on observed actions. Even if the Vex physically doesn't time jump back the 10 minutes I said for simplicity, you now claim they still send the information. You simply changed the method of delivery, not my entire premise. So they aren't simulating outcomes, they are calculating strategies to overcome what already has occurred and send that information back to themselves in the past to attempt the new concept. This would continue into infinity until such time that a complete calculation is had for success. In essence they are running a scientific experiment in reverse. They have a result (losing), but now they are calculating the variables involved and want to try to tweak those variables to obtain a hopefully better result (winning). A simulation is an experiment running in the forward direction. What I put forth, as I already stated, is a reversal. To use a different analogy: algebra. The Vex have come across an outcome that is say a 5. They know winning is a 42, they simply just know it due to experience. Now their goal is to find the equation and value X to satisfy the statement f(x) = 42. They know neither what X is nor what the equation to use is. But they do know the answer. Nor do they know how complex an equation it will be. But each time the send information, they equation gets perfected until said point that it satisfies the requirement. The Vex are very advanced machines with that organic "brain." I highly doubt they are incapable of backwards thought and can only do forwards thought. As far as avoid time paradoxes...they do that by merely existing. They alter timelines by simply appearing. Also, if they all share the single mind, in essence you can have 20000000000..... of the same unit from across time in one location. For even a different unit is technically a duplicate. They do not poses unique personalities, only specific task/duties/directives. And these are shared among all of the same Vex type. To use this argument and have it be held as valid, each unit would necessitate its own personality and desires. Quantum mechanics already tells us that one particle can, and indeed is, in multiple locations at any given time. The mere act of having Goblin #25 from yesterday appear with Goblin #25 from a month from now won't do any more altering of the timeline than Goblin #25 existing anyway. This is true because Goblins #1-infinity are all copies anyway. Same holds for all other Vex types. I also never claimed they would go ballistic. My conjecture is in fact the opposite. They are attempting to further REDUCE loses from the encounter. Your opening paragraph also proves the paradoxes they create. Which also would be the same paradoxes created by my conjecture. Their simple act of sending the data back means they alter the timeline and create a new one, which in turn also means the Vex that was destroyed is now no longer destroyed. Which would then mean they never receive the data because that unit isn't destroyed. Which results in the unit being destroyed, which results in its survival, which results in its destruction, etc...There is a name for this type of paradox, which escapes me at the moment.

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