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originally posted in: Thoughts on Weapon Balance
12/15/2016 4:50:31 AM
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Half these post are about buffing HCs and shotguns.. meanwhile every sweaty match is Palindrone/Matador64. Even with random bullets from HCs they still run the competitive play? Yet people want to take them out? Please take the time to think about what HCs would be like without ghost bullets.. say damage dropoff is the answer. Damage dropoff is about percentages - HCs do more damage per bullet than ANY primary in the game. 86 for Palindrone.. say the damage drop off made it like other guns where it takes it down a notch each meter you get outside of range. One headshot- Palindrone - 86 Clever Dragon - 69 As you get outside of 10 meters of range say it drops 10 points. Clever Dragon - 59 Palindrone - 76 Eventually you are in long distance with palidrone hitting for 56 per headshot.. meanwhile scouts with low impact are doing that damage from that distance, and within range. The problem is bloom HAD to be put in because the gun can do up to 94 damage per headshot! Imagine being across the map just got done winning a 1 on 1 battle and a HC user just taps you once for 59 damage and kills you. If Bloom is removed the Range needs to be nerfed. Then on top of that outside of range should be a WAY higher damage decrease by %. To the people talking about buffing shotguns. Please, you have no clue what balance even means.
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  • Edited by RANGERX117: 12/15/2016 2:36:57 PM
    The problem with your data is that HC's are so very inconsistent that the numbers really don't matter if you can't hit the target consistently. Bloom is the problem. If you look at weapons stats the guns most used are the guns that are the most consistent to hit the target. Cleaver dragon, MIDA, etc.

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  • Edited by Lorax: 12/15/2016 2:15:03 PM
    No

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  • Do you even know why most if not all sweats are with handcannons? Look up there rules you idiot then get back with us.

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  • Umm i played im the farcog tournament i know the rules.. they dont say anything about HCs idiot

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  • you have no clue what you are talking about .. Senior Gameplay Designer at Bungie Jon Weisnewski, explained very well how hand cannons work in the podcast made by planet destiny a year ago. 1st. Damage dropoff is the least of worry in the hand cannon and is actually a pretty good mechanic. You can not compete against pulses/scouts with hand cannons after max range of hand cannons for a reason because of the ghost bullets / random accuracy [b]alone[/b] and it only affects hand cannons and shotguns, so let me explain this to you in a manner you would understand. When you shoot your hand cannon it creates an[b] invisible cone [/b]that expands depending on the range stat, so the[b] Bigger the range[/b] the [b]Narrower the cone[/b] will be and your shots will be more "[b]accurate[/b]" and the[b] less range you have the bigger and wider the cone[/b] is going to be and shots will land "within" the cone radius, but even if you have the max range hand cannon with rangefinder and all that good stuff ,if you step out of "max range" of hand cannons, your cone will expand a lot and widening and making the cone radius even bigger making ghost bullets an even bigger issue. So all shots no matter the range only land withing the cone radius, so it is totally random where the shot is going to go withing that cone and when you are at over max range of hc as already the cone is even bigger, which makes it that it cannot compete with pulses or scouts unless you get a lucky RNG dice that lands your shot exactly on the head of the enemy within a cone. So at over max range the % of getting a ghost bullet increases and when you get a ghost bullet on your hc, the opponent pulse just keeps hitting you, and you'll lose that fight 9 out of 10. Ghost bullet increases Hand cannons time to kill [b]tremendously [/b]which is why they cannot compete with other primaries excluding auto rifles (lol). No point playing an FPS game overall when your shots are decided by RNG calculator if they are going to hit or not. Hand cannons require more luck than skill to use.

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  • No land beyond does more damage per shot

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  • Edited by TheCyo: 12/15/2016 12:30:02 PM
    The basic idea of your argument is right. Currently a Palindrom type hand cannon fires faster and with more impact than all the hard hitting scouts (e.g. Jade Rabbit) out there, even in the long ranges these scouts are built for. So removing bloom (another word for the inaccuracy introduced to HCs with growing range) would obsolete all scouts out there. So you would have to introduce a massive range drop off to keep those scouts viable. Currently with bloom I can try to compete with a Jade (the RNG gods may be on my side). After a massive range cut off, not so anymore. HCs would be severely limited and unusable beyond lets say, close to mid range. Or put it another way, every hand cannon would be The Last Word without ghost bullets and much slower fire rate. Because this is your primary you would have to compensate with your secondary (thats why no one in his right mind pairs a LTW with a shotgun). So the only possible HC loadout in this future that could try to compete with Pulses/Scouts beyond close range would be HC/Sniper. And we know how great snipers are now. Have fun with that. You guys are not knowing what you wish for.

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  • Not hardly.....there is no hand cannon that can compete with a Scout at scout range.

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  • If you would have read my text... the only reason they can currently not compete is range inaccuracy (or as you my call it: Bloom).

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  • Hand cannons have a WAY steeper dropoff than pulses Where did you get 94 damage? Thats first curse weapon damage. Hand cannons dominate because shotguns do. Both are close range and kill fast. If shotguns drop out of the meta then hand cannons will too.

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  • The point I think a lot of people are making is that bloom should only apply when damage fall off has began. It should not be applying when HC's are within intended range.

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  • Exactly!

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  • Yes, this. And I propose also when stability kick is still resetting (someone that isn't pacing shots).

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  • This post is wrong in every way lol Misinformation for the win?

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  • - The degree of Damage dropoff varies from weapon class to weapon class - The max effective range varies from weapon class to weapon class https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPfJAUzQo3Y Even in the example of a Hand Cannon finishing off another player who is already low health there is an issue. Why is it a problem that a Hand Cannon can shoot you in the head and finish you when you are already at low health?

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  • 4
    Stop spreading all that bullshit, i proved you wrong on another thread allready. Of course Handcannons have the highest burst damage because they are the slowest firing primary weapon class. The damage drop off on clever dragon is basically non existent, i still 3 burst across the lane on pantheon. Please go ahead and try to do that with a handcannon. What will you complain about next? Colovances Duty because it can actually 3 tap across the map? You spreading your misinformation 24/7 is pretty annoying allready.

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  • Edited by MetalCanine5460: 12/15/2016 3:54:59 PM
    A messenger or parthain shot does more damage than a handcannon

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  • 1
    That is true forgot about that archetype.

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  • I feel like this is one of the guys who says every gun that kills him or every player that our skills him is op, therefore the hear should be nerfed. *Gets one shot by golden gun* I think that golden gun should require a headshot

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  • 1
    This is true, they would have to do their max damage to whatever range and then have a very very steep damage drop off. I think TTK and balance is fine pretty much, I thought maybe they should take away the high cal rounds perk and give them to low rate of fire pulses and autos as an intrinsic perk because of how hard they hit and that might be enough to make them relevant again

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  • That's actually a good idea. Ive been thinking where do mid and low rate weapons fit in because you can kill someone with the same amount of burst on a fast rate. I was thinking maybe increasing the kill to two burst but maybe that would be too fast? Yea I dunno.... The intrinsic HCR on high impact weapons is a good idea though. This occurred to me also.... Low impact weapons - no intrinsic perk Mid impact weapons - HCR intrinsic perk High impact weapons - Armor Piercing intrinsic perk Also make armor piercing useful. It should definitely go through certain kind of cover because that perk is pretty useless in PvP

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  • Uhhh... nerf fusions?

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  • Buff shotguns

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