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originally posted in:The Ashen Conflux
originally posted in: The Identity of Dredgen Yor
10/24/2016 4:40:44 AM
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Where does it say Yor met Xyor?
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  • You know the answer, it doesn't. Since you seem to be level headed on this....what about Pujari? Could he be Dredgen Yor? I will put my notes in (parenthesis) From Legend: The Black Garden "I am Pujari. These are the visions I have had of the Black Garden." Goes on to say this: This is the vision I had when I leapt from the Shores of Time and let myself sink (sink could be his "corruption): I walked beneath the blossoms. The light came from ahead and the shadows of the flowers were words. They said things but I will not write them here. At the end of the path grew a flower in the shape of a Ghost. I reached out to pluck it and it cut me with a thorn. I bled and the blood was Light. (The Blood was Light....still not corrupted) The Ghost said to me: You are a dead thing made by a dead power in the shape of the dead. All you will ever do is kill. You do not belong here. This is a place of life. (maybe the ghost saw what he was turning into) The Traveler is life, I said. You are a creature of Darkness. You seek to deceive me. But I looked behind me, down the long slope where the blossoms tumbled in the warm wind and the great trees wept sap like blood or wine, and I felt doubt. When my Ghost raised me from the sea there was a thorn-cut in my left hand and it has not healed since. (A thorn cut in his hand that never healed.....) Check this out from the Grimoire Card The Darkness (this is theories on what the darkness is): The Pujari Position describes the Darkness as a force with both physical and moral presence, an actualization of evil. Pujari art depicts the Darkness as a great storm (like he described himself as a force of nature to his ghost in the Thorn cards), or as a change in conduct (good to bad...duh), a corruption that emerged from within(changed from the inside out) and poisoned the Golden Age. Any chance Pujari is Dregen Yor?

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  • Xyor essentially created thorn.

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  • Okay, give me a Grim card.

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  • It's not in the grimoire.

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  • Exactly. And even the exotic bounty didn't have flavor text implying Yor met her even. It's conjecture to say Yor ever met Xyor to try and connect him with Azir.

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  • Edited by Hangdoc: 10/24/2016 3:21:57 PM
    Xyor changed the rose into the thorn. Dredgen Yor was in possession for f the weapon from when it was known as rose to when it became thorn. It's safe to say that Dredgen Yor met Xyor at some point. Christ. I'm not saying Rezyl Azzir is Dredgen Yor at all. In fact I'm saying the opposite.

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  • There is no changing, the "rose" was always the thorn. He just never noticed it because he was entranced by the corruption.

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  • Edited by Hangdoc: 10/24/2016 3:32:31 PM
    No, weapons of sorrow are weapons that used to be normal weapons but were augmented by hive magic. The first line in the thorn grimoire says that it was augmented through dark hive practices.

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  • But it's also quoted as saying that "for the first time, he realized it had no petals" making him realize that his "rose" had always been a thorn. It might have been something else at some point, but it was always a thorn in Yors hands.

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  • Edited by Hangdoc: 10/24/2016 3:46:17 PM
    It might have always looked like a thorn but it wasn't the same weapon. It did change at some point and this is referenced a lot

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  • The only reference to it "changing" in yors possession is a quote that says "he realized, for the first time, that it had no petals" which is more about his perception changing than it is about the gun changing.

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  • The gun did change. It says in the thorn grimoire. It's what makes it a weapon of sorrow.

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  • The grimoire only says "he looked down and noticed, for the first time, that it had no petals" It's about him releazing that his "rose" was really a thorn.

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  • Edited by Hangdoc: 10/26/2016 2:02:35 AM
    The thorn grimoire card: [quote]Augmented through dark practices, Thorn was once a hero's weapon. Its jagged frame hints at a sinister truth: a powerful connection to the unutterable sorceries of the Hive. [/quote] Thorn is a weapon of sorrow- [quote]The Weapons of Sorrow were believed to be nothing more than a myth. But even the darkest myths are born of some truths[/quote] How they were made- [quote]a lost Guardian’s weapon was altered by the Hive in an attempt to fuse their own dark understanding with humanity’s mastery of war[/quote] From the necrochasm grimoire, which is also a weapon of sorrow. Thorn did undergo fundamental physical changes and was augmented by the hive.

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  • I'm not arguing that, I'm saying that it became the thorn before degden yor ever came into contact with it. He got the thorn, called it the rose, realized it had no petals after he was full on corrupted like.

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  • He created it tho

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  • Where does it say that? I've missed that part

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  • Edited by Hangdoc: 10/26/2016 2:34:11 AM
    Ghost Fragment : Thorn 2 [quote] [u.1:0.1] Can I see what you got there? [silence] [u.1:0.2] Yer cannon...can I see it? [beat] [u.2:0.1] I know you? [beat] [u.1:0.3] Not that I can say. [u.2:0.2] And you wanna hold my piece? [beat] [u.1:0.4] Just that I never...seen one like it. [beat] [u.2:0.3] No, you haven't. [u.1:0.5] Looks dangerous. [u.2:0.4] Seems, maybe, that's the point. [u.1:0.6] Suppose so. [u.1:0.7] Can I see it? [u.2:0.5] Not likely. [silence] [u.1:0.8] Where'd...where'd you find it? [silence] [u.1:0.9] You hearin' me? [silence] [u.3:0.1] He asked you question. [silence] [u.2:0.6] Didn't find it. Made it. [u.1:1.0] Heh. Helluva touch you got then. You a 'smith? [u.2:0.7] I look like a 'smith? [u.1:1.1] Looks can be deceiving. [u.2:0.8] Got that right. [/quote] He might not have made the original rose but he definitely made thorn.

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  • Okay, where is the information that Xyor was the one to change it. You're giving me information with zero credible source, only conjecture.

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  • Also the destiny lore is so vague at this point that 99% of it is just conjecture.

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  • ffs man it is widely known that in order to cleanse thorn, people are required to break the bond between the weapon and Xyor. Xyor is responsible for the use of hive magic in augmenting the weapons if sorrow.

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  • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqDD4Xag7BQ&feature=youtu.be Here's the flavor text from the original quest. Never is it mentioned in the [i]actual[/i] lore that Xyor created the thorn or directly manipulated the rose. Please don't preset your [i]theory[/i] or even a widely know [u][b]theory[/b][/u] as fact. Yes you must kill Xyor to break the final bond to release the weapon for your use, however, please keep in mind that originally you had to run the Summoning pits strike to claim the depleted hand cannon to start building the thorn. I would recommend looking for the answer to the link between Phogoth and Xyor for your answer as to why we had to mess with them to claim the thorn, and how they looted it from Yor's dead body.

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  • Okay, now show me where Yor met Xyor. Thorn was corrupted while it was still rose to Yor. This would imply the weapon was already corrupted by the time it came to be in Yor's possession. The implication of Yor being Azir is that he went to the moon, was the first ever to be spared by the Hive, and didn't even notice as his weapon functioned entirely differently than it used to. That's the absolutely ludicrous series of events that would need to happen.

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  • Edited by Hangdoc: 10/24/2016 3:42:44 PM
    I have said before that it doesn't make any sense that Rezyl Azzir is not Dredgen Yor. Yor (before he was corrupt) used the rose inside of the crucible and became notorious because of it. It was augmented by dark hive practices (as is referenced in the grimoire) and became thorn. Xyor is the only hive that we know of to have any association with thorn/rose is Xyor, and therefore it makes sense that Dredgen Yor came across her at some point. Yor's perspective of the weapon changed, this is probably what lead him to turn it into thorn and not the other way around.

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  • But Yor didn't [i]have to[/i] encounter Xyor. If he did, he would be dead. The Hive aren't merciful creatures. The Hive [i]need[/i] to kill to survive. And a Guardian's Light makes for fantastic tribute.

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