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Edited by Teb40: 5/24/2016 6:22:38 PM
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I watched the video but I don't buy the logic. I never played an online PVP game before Destiny and struggled in Y1. I got better by playing more and watching better players. SBMM is the gaming equivalent of "no scrub left behind". It is a race to a 1.0 KD and a 50/50 win/lose ratio when your skills plateau. Without some sort of visible skill ranking system (ELO or whatever), PVP becomes meaningless. If I have a 1.5 KD, it's meaningless without knowing the rank/quality of opponents. Bungie could really do the community a favor by exposing their skill ranking algorithm and turning it into a visible stat. We need bragging rights and a way to see where we rank. The other issue that is critically important is consistency. Lag is the biggest factor here. Every match should feel the same. Guns, melee, supers should all feel right. Too many matches are broken by red bar players and they feel "off" because timing, radar, and hit detection are so dramatically affected by connection quality. I applaud the crackdown on red bar gods, but a better solution would be to restrict people to their own geographical area if they have poor connections. I have seen posts where people self-restrict themselves from crucible because of bad connections. Some people are buying routers that eliminate connections to players outside a specific distance. Why can't we choose whether or not we want to play against people on the other side of the world? This is a much more complex issue than just wanting to prevent pub stomping and allowing newbs a chance to win some matches. It is an oversimplification and insulting to players since it prevents everyone from knowing where they rank and whether they are improving. It is even worse when the inconsistent experience leaves you guessing whether it is you, your load out, or the lag that determined the outcome of the match. SBMM exacerbates the issues with connections and consistency. This is why the community as a whole is grumbling. Edit: According to Destiny Tracker I am ranked top 5% for time playing crucible. The percentage of matches that feel right seems frustratingly low right now. As an example, this morning I played a couple matches of mayhem rumble. I was killed multiple times by primaries before a player came around a corner. Multiple players never showed up on radar until I was dead, not even a blip from crouching. Players were showing as right around the corner but grenades couldn't hit them. When I came around the corner the radar was showing them right next to me but they were way down a long hallway shooting me with their doctrine well out of reach of my shotgun. This is why consistency is important. The experience is dependent on the connection lottery. I'd rather be grumbling about my stupid mistakes than getting angry at the red bar god who took three fusion blasts and ran through my grenade untouched to melee me to death just before the fusion kill finally registered. When connections are good, PVP is awesome and it feels fair. I just want more matches like this. I want to be able to play a ton of matches without reporting anyone for a bad connection.
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  • I 100% agree, lag, or inconsistent connections is the number one thing which puts me on tilt. I would rather get my but kicked by someone who is more skilled than me than lose by a single kill to a laggy person

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  • Bump

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  • Keep in mind that our good friend Derek Carroll said just a few days ago that SBMM as we think of it is a myth. That's what we're dealing with. That is why, regardless of how loudly we protest, nothing is going to change.

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  • I know. My response to this is that matchmaking needs another QA pass within Bungie. The explanation I saw was that matchmaking tries to be SBMM first, then quickly drops back to CBMM. If this is truly the case it shouldn't take multiple minutes to find a match. There are times when it feels like I could run down the street to order carry out and still make it back in time to make the start of the next match. :-) My guess is that Bungie is doing multiple SBMM passes as it analyzes the available player pool to put together a homogenized match card. If I queue solo I get a very homogenous card. If I queue with a fire team with very mixed skill levels I see a corresponding mix in the other team. If I had to guess I would bet Bungie is intentionally adding players to both sides in matching sets to reach an averaged skill balance in the misguided attempt to "keep matches close". In Y1, if you got blown out you went to orbit to try to find a new lobby if you wanted to match with different players. In Y2, you go to orbit to try to find players with better connections. Breaking up teams on a blowout sucks because it takes away the opportunity to get revenge.

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  • Because you are a professional game developer and know [u]exactly[/u] what's happening in the matchmaking algorithms and netcode? And there's not even the tiniest possibility that your personal experience and biases might cause you to jump to an erroneous conclusion?

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  • Edited by Duskpyre: 5/24/2016 8:19:32 PM
    Not at all. I don't need to be a professional game developer to remember Derek claiming, repeatedly, that no matchmaking settings had been altered when this whole sbmm versus cbmm debacle began. I don't need to be a professional game developer to remember Sage Merril saying, on a CR podcast interview, that if anything had been changed, Derek would know. I don't need to be a professional game developer to remember Derek claiming, once the reality had been revealed in that week's update, that changes had mysteriously been made without his knowledge despite the fact that players had bombarding Bungie with their suspicions for weeks by that point. My personal experiences and biases have nothing to do with a tweet from Derek in that same conversation revealing that "a good connection is sought within a skill bracket" as the first check when matchmaking. He then later contradicted himself by claiming that connection quality was prioritized over skill, but I digress. Does that answer your question?

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  • Yes and no. That answers a different question, actually, about why you would question what he says. But it doesn't mean that if he checks his sources first and thinks it through before opening his mouth, that your playing experience means that he is automatically incorrect. Not trusting him is different than being an armchair quarterback.

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  • He is a [b]Crucible Lead[/b], not an isolated member of a different team who would be out of the loop. The situation didn't spring up out of nowhere and leave him with a measly handful of seconds to think of a response. It was deliberate. I'm afraid that we're going to have to agree to disagree. If someone has demonstrated that they're willing to be deliberately manipulative, I have no reason to believe anything that they say going forward.

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  • Edited by bobswerski: 5/24/2016 9:20:23 PM
    [quote] I'm afraid that we're going to have to agree to disagree.[/quote] TBH I'm not terribly interested in riding the lying bungo conspiracy theory train but I can live with that assessment.

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  • It is even worse when the inconsistent experience leaves you guessing whether it is you, your load out, or the lag that determined the outcome of the match. ^this is spot on

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  • "no scrub left behind" Chortle.

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  • Oh yeah I know the inconsistent feeling of wow where'd that bullet go Last night they were flying through heads and doing nothing I literally would rather play dark souls 3 than suffer through crucible I've died over 1000 times and am still having more fun because it's a consistent game (for the most part)

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  • "It is even worse when the inconsistent experience leaves you guessing whether it is you, your load out, or the lag that determined the outcome of the match" I think this line sums it up beautifully! I will go 2.0 in matches, then go negative, and I am left thinking what the eff changed.

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  • I agree on this 1000% ....so many matches are just inconsistent....when everyone is green I usually go positive and I don't grunt at my deaths because I know what happened ....but man when those two red bars enter, I can't seem to hit anyone and I feel like I'm a piece of paper going up against chainsaws

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  • [quote]I watched the video but I don't buy the logic. I never played an online PVP game before Destiny and struggled in Y1. I got better by playing more and watching better players. SBMM is the gaming equivalent of "no scrub left behind". It is a race to a 1.0 KD and a 50/50 win/lose ratio when your skills plateau. Without some sort of visible skill ranking system (ELO or whatever), PVP becomes meaningless. If I have a 1.5 KD, it's meaningless without knowing the rank/quality of opponents. Bungie could really do the community a favor by exposing their skill ranking algorithm and turning it into a visible stat. We need bragging rights and a way to see where we rank. The other issue that is critically important is consistency. Lag is the biggest factor here. Every match should feel the same. Guns, melee, supers should all feel right. Too many matches are broken by red bar players and they feel "off" because timing, radar, and hit detection are so dramatically affected by connection quality. I applaud the crackdown on red bar gods, but a better solution would be to restrict people to their own geographical area if they have poor connections. I have seen posts where people self-restrict themselves from crucible because of bad connections. Some people are buying routers that eliminate connections to players outside a specific distance. Why can't we choose whether or not we want to play against people on the other side of the world? This is a much more complex issue than just wanting to prevent pub stomping and allowing newbs a chance to win some matches. It is an oversimplification and insulting to players since it prevents everyone from knowing where they rank and whether they are improving. It is even worse when the inconsistent experience leaves you guessing whether it is you, your load out, or the lag that determined the outcome of the match. SBMM exacerbates the issues with connections and consistency. This is why the community as a whole is grumbling.[/quote] Well said. To bad mtashed is to busy felating bungie to notice.

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  • they wont ever add the ts 50 back in the game.. they removed it just for the reasons you listed plus all the fake accounts and account selling leading to lots of fake 50's. they wont ever region lock this game either.

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  • It's too bad. Region selection is a really nice feature in Nintendo games like Smash Bros., Splatoon and Mario Kart. My clan mate loves Splatoon and enjoys playing ranked matches against Japanese players. Ranked/unranked plus region selection would be awesome for Destiny. At least you could choose when you wanted to play sweaty matches against people around the world.

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  • There is a visible stat for skill...combat rating. Average is right at 100 with higher number equaling higher skill.

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  • The problem is that Combat Rating is opaque. Bungie created it, but only they know exactly how it is calculated. They have hinted that it is impacted by leaving matches, but no one outside Bungie ever talks about this stat.

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  • It's all meaningless anyway because it's a video game. There are better pvp games, why are you still here?

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  • Edited by sdfgtty67: 5/24/2016 11:48:58 AM
    [quote]It's all meaningless anyway because it's a video game. There are better pvp games, why are you still here?[/quote] Why are you still here. Sub 1 kd scrub

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  • I like this one. :-)

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