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5/12/2016 7:36:42 PM
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Hate Crime is Thoughtcrime

Hate Crimes are Thoughtcrimes

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Hate Crimes are not Thoughtcrimes

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A hate crime is a crime that was motivated by a preexisting prejudice against something such as race, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, religion, etc. Under the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994, felonies that are deemed to be "hate crimes" are required to be punished more severely. This screams, "Thoughtcrime." The very basis behind the creation and enforcement of laws is to protect people's rights. One of the state's jobs is the retribution of those that violate others' rights, which is signified by breaking a (just) law. Let's think of it this way... Robbery is a felony. There are three classes of robbery -- First Degree, Second Degree, and Third Degree. Third degree is pretty simple. If you use an object to threaten someone so that you can steal something from them, that's third degree. However, if you use a gun or a knife, it elevates you to second degree. Second degree is also the starting line for auto theft. If you injure someone, you're elevated to first degree. In some states, since this is only a general overview of nationwide policies, the mere presence of a gun during the robbery automatically elevates you to first degree. Why is this bit important? Higher degrees of robbery, with first degree being the highest, are punished more severely. This makes sense, since it's justified to enact a harsher punishment on a more heinous violation of another's rights. In this case, merely threatening someone and taking their stuff is a violation. Pointing a gun at them (which is assault, by the way) and [i]then[/i] taking their stuff is more heinous, since you've not only deprived them of their property, but also endangered their life as well. Since the crime was more heinous, you get a more severe punishment. Now, motive alone cannot violate somebody's rights. I can fantasize about killing people all day, but I'm still an innocent man. There's a dangerous precedent set by enacting harsher penalties because of motive. It's not consistent with the idea that laws protect rights, or that violators must be punished to a degree representative of the degree of the crime. Go back to the bit about robbery. If I assault somebody (pointing a gun at them) [i]and[/i] steal from them, I'm looking at a likely ten extra years in prison. The amount of extra time that should be served is debatable, but it makes sense that I serve more time for violating more rights. That's the basis of retribution and law enforcement in the free world. Now, we've established that hate crimes are punished more severely. Hypothetically, if I attack somebody I am going to serve time. But if the court finds that I was motivated by prejudice towards one of the aforementioned categories, then I get to serve even more time. This means one of two things. Either... 1) We as a society are arbitrary in our justice, and use law enforcement and retribution without regard to its just application or its basis. Or... 2) We as a society, for some reason, believe that people have a right to not have prejudiced thoughts targeted at them. Both choices are bad. 1 means that we need to seriously reevaluate our idea of justice. 2 means that we need to reevaluate our idea of what a "right" is. If you believe that 2 is correct and just, then I'm glad to inform you that you support the prosecution of a thoughtcrime. An extended sentence means a more heinous violation of rights, or the violation of more than one right. By extending sentences for hate crimes, we imply that the prejudiced motive of a violation is in itself a violation. In other words, we prosecute a thoughtcrime.

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  • Edited by Riot Actual: 5/16/2016 10:06:24 PM
    You understand that the only people who [i]really[/i] punished "thoughtcrime" were only dictators (such as Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, etc.), right? Here in the U.S., I remember that we have something called "Freedom of Speech, Religion, and Press." Essentially, you can express your thoughts [i]physically and verbally[/i]. The best part? If I were to walk up to you, and called you an asshole, I would not be charged with any kind of criminal offense. In your cases, although criminals [i]may[/i] have plotted their crimes beforehand, the only reason are being charged with fines, prison, or death is not because they [i]thought[/i] it, but rather that they [i]did[/i] it.

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  • Manslaughter and murder carry different punishments despite both involving the same act: the unlawful killing of another.

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    • You understand that in all crimes, intent is considered, right? Like, murder is that you had intent to kill that person, aggravated manslaughter is that you were provoked into killing them, and manslaughter is that you had no intent to kill them.

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      • 3
        War is Peace Freedom is Slavery Ignorance is Strength

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        • [quote]Now, we've established that hate crimes are punished more severely. Hypothetically, if I attack somebody I am going to serve time. But if the court finds that I was motivated by prejudice towards one of the aforementioned categories, then I get to serve even more time. This means one of two things. Either... 1) We as a society are arbitrary in our justice, and use law enforcement and retribution without regard to its just application or its basis. Or... 2) We as a society, for some reason, believe that people have a right to not have prejudiced thoughts targeted at them.[/quote] No. 1 is a rather grotesque strawman that doesn't merit a substantive response. No. 2 is pretty damn good, but still misses the mark a bit IMHO. People aren't jailed for violating "rights," whatever that means. They're jailed for violating criminal statutes. Hate crime legislation is simply the people, through their elected representatives, declaring that a battery committed because the victim was black is more reprehensible, and thus warrants more severe punishment, than a battery committed because the perp is a garden variety drunken ragemonkey. The motive component is a sentence enhancer that doesn't alter the elements of the offense in any way, shape or form. You're certainly free to question the wisdom of the societal judgment that underlies such legislation, but tossing around emotionally charged (and in this instance factually inapposite) term like "thought crime" doesn't further the debate at all. [quote]In other words, we prosecute a thoughtcrime.[/quote] Only if we redefine the term "thought crime" to the point of unrecognizability. I'll pass on that.

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          • Hebridean Thoughtcrime? [spoiler]Inb4 hated on for referencing destiny[/spoiler]

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            • You're so wrong I can't even begin to explain. A thought crime is one in which there is no action. IE the actus rea to a crime. Thus without the action there can be no crime. A hate crime even though motivated by preexisting thoughts still are evaluated by their actions like burning a cross on someone's yard for example. Please don't reproduce.

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              • I hate everything equally, all my crime is a hate crime

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              • No you can hate all day everyday and you will not be prosecuted. If you act on it you can be prosecuted.

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                • There are always harsher penalties because of motive. That's why there are multiple degrees of murder, and manslaughter exists. Intent changes punishment, and it always has. Hatecrime isn't an example of "setting a dangerous precedent", hatecrime is the result of precedents set hundereds of years ago. The real point of hatecrimes are to acknowledge the difference between the psychological effect of a hatecrime versus a good old crime on its victims. Let's say that you're a black family in the south. Somebody burns a cross on your lawn. Your lawn catches on fire, and your house burns down. Let's say that the same thing happens to some white family. Both of the criminals would be charged with arson. Only the black family's attacker would be charged with a hate crime. Why? Because burning crosses means something different to blacks in the south than whites. It calls back hundreds of years of de jure, and fifty years of de facto racism. It is a [b]different crime[/b] than that commited upon the white family. Moreover, you don't seem to understand what thoughtcrime is. Thoughtcrime is making crimes out of thoughts. Thoughts are not currently illegal. You are completely within your rights to fantasize about whatever the hell you want. Once you act upon those fantasies, you are subject to the punishments of the law. This is the way it's always been.

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                  • Big brother is always watching

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                    • I thought of the book 1984 when you said thoughtcrime

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                      • thought crime; you have an idea you are punished for THINKING THE IDEA and nothing else. thought crime is [b][i][u]NOT[/u][/i][/b] an action based crime; to commit thought crime all you do is simply think of something determined to be illicit----> you do that and you are guilty and punished for only thinking a thought and nothing else. until we actually establish a means to be able to 100% determine what other people are thinking passively(as in with out them saying or doing anything) [b][i][u]THERE IS NO ACTUAL THOUGHT CRIME/ABILITY TO PERSECUTE VIOLATORS OF THOUGHT CRIME [/u][/i][/b] example; [b][i][u]MURDER[/u][/i][/b] is illegal. yet you can day dream/think about murdering any one you want, any time you want, any place you want, any way you want. [b][i][u]WITH OUT ANY LEGAL CONSEQUENCES BTW[/u][/i][/b]

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                        • Thoughtcrime is, unsurprisingly, a crime purely of thought, in which little or no action is actually taken, or perhaps even was intended to be taken. The thing is, as you yourself stated, "I can fantasize about killing people all day, but I'm still an innocent man." Hate Crime though, does require actual action, albeit motivated by what some might consider a more nefarious line of thought than mere greed. So no, hate crime isn't thoughtcrime, although it certainly does seem to set the stage for it.

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                          • Thinking is crime confirmed

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                          • I call this presentation "hate crimes a savage hypocrisy "

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                          • Cop 1: we believe this crime is racially motivated. Cop 2: hate crime? Cop 1: of course we hate crime! Whats why we're cops!

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                            • Now a days people discriminate you on what you think not skin color anymore

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                            • Edited by Freezing Dart: 5/13/2016 11:51:05 AM
                              I never thought about about that OP, thank you for the perspective.

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                            • 2
                              It is ridiculous that you serve more time for just disliking the person you wronged.

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                              • We have already determined motive as a crime with the distinction between murder and manslaughter. This just takes that one step further. It should be pointed out that nobody gets jailed simply for being a racist or wanting to murder someone as you yourself said; it is ONLY when they act violently on those thoughts that they get punished for them, which is not the same as a thoughtcrime.

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                                • I can't tell if this is satire or not...

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                                  • No one should have the right to publicly speak in a racist or downright hateful manner.

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                                    • I would argue but I know you wont let up no matter what. All i have to say is 1. If you want to associate modern life with 1984 there are much better roads to go 2. Libertarians will never win. It's not a opinion. It's probable (damn near certain). Red or blue no matter that they say they ALL run the same. (Ex. Bush never killing abortion practice when he had the chance. Abortion is only for votes nobody you elect will stop it unless they are a hardline idealist) the only way to change it is revolution. The next revolution will have progressives win. Why? Because they international groups will be funding the civil war and I doubt they will support the libertarians because they want order. This isn't personal preference. It's what will play out.

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                                      • Hate crime typically involves physical acts though, right?

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                                        • More like Hebridean Thoughtcrime [spoiler]ba dum tss[/spoiler]

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