originally posted in:The Ashen Conflux
Thoughts regarding Axiom III - throne world / God-mind:
- since the throne world is an extension of the mind and will of the god that creates it, the Hive are able to re-create themselves into being and re-enter physical reality.
- the ghosts were created by the Traveler, considered a god by some, and when the guardians are killed, we are re-created into being and re-enter physical reality. Would this meet the definition of throne world as described by the Hive Axiom or truths? In essence, the Ghost can be considered an extension of a god-mind, or a Throne World, and we become the physical representation of that mind, otherwise as an extension of the Traveler. Once your ghost is destroyed or drained of light, it no longer has a god to continue existing and is no longer an extension of the traveler, thus cannot re-create the physical representation, becoming the guardian's last life.
Regarding Axiom I - Sword logic:
- as guardians we only kill. If we have a throne world via the sword logic axiom III, then it is logical that we kill so that we gain power through the act of killing. We use the traveler's light as our weapon, and through it we kill so that we gain light experience, which creates motes of light that we use to increase the power of our weapons. If the light acts as our sword, then the light directly grows with each kill as well as ourselves, which are only physical representations of the light. It would follow that the Traveler then also follows the sword logic, which would explain why Oryx wants to destroy it, so she can prove that she is real and true and close to the final shape of the universe (axiom II).
- by killing Oryx, we have only followed the same sword logic that Oryx was following, and have only proven that we (and by extension the Traveler) are true and real and Oryx was false and fake. But we used the power of Oryx in her undoing, thus proving her strength and by doing so through the sword logic, and with the weapon made from Oryx, we have also proven that the final shape of the universe is the same that Oryx followed, which is why Oryx said she lives forever - because we become the same as her.
[quote]If I am defeated, I know that I will fall to something mighty. Something that craves might, something that loves what I love, which is the Deep, a principle and a power, the versatile, protean need to adapt and endure, to reach out and shape the universe entirely for that purpose, to mutate and redesign and test and iterate so that it can prevail, can seize existence and hold it, certain that this is everything, that there is nothing to life except living. And it has two faces, yet it is one shape. One face is the objective, which is obvious, and the other face is that will to sacrifice things and ideas for a single mission, the mission of becoming the shape, a shape that will not relent, the utter commitment to survival, to draw the right sword and choose where to cut: to allow this hunger to become your weapon.
So I will prepare a book, which is a map to a weapon. And my vanquisher will read that book, seeking the weapon, and they will come to understand me, where I have been and where I was going. And then they will take up my weapon, and they will use it, they will use that weapon, which is all that I am.
And armed thus with my past, and my future, and my present (which is a weapon, a weapon that takes whatever is available, a weapon bound to malice), they will mantle me, Oryx, the Taken King.
They will become me and I will become them, each of us defeating the other, correcting the other, alloying ourselves into one omnipotent philosophy. Thus I will live forever.
I’ll make sure. (Darkness: Insight)[/quote]
- some believe it is Toland that speaks much of the same:
[quote]You fools! You disastrous, bumbling squanderers! It's not right! Who now shall be First Navigator, Lord of Shapes, harrowed god, Taken King? Not you! You might have been Kings and Queens of the Deep! But you have toppled Oryx and you have not replaced him!
There must be a strongest one. It is the architecture of these spaces. (King's Fall)[/quote]
Of course, many real cultures believe that light and dark are two sides of the same thing, so it makes sense that the Traveler and Darkness are both of the same entity and use the same sword logic towards the same ultimate shape of the universe. Both sides are proving that the strongest entity rules, unless the light differentiates itself through some future cause.
To reality, this is just conjecture and loosely interpreted story, that I am in no way an expert in. It just popped into my head while reading the OP and I wanted to get it out.
English
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Interesting theory about how the light and dark may be two sides of the same reality. Note the flavor text of the Oversoul Edict (CE raid pulse rifle): [quote]The light of the will of Crota shines down like a vast and inverse sun.[/quote] This supports the idea that the darkness of the Hive god-star, Crota's (and Oryx's?) throne world, is the inverted light of the traveler. It reminds me of The Force in Star Wars, where two sides are constantly keeping each other in check.
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Edited by ScientificBEST: 1/19/2016 4:12:08 PMQuick note on sword logic via guardian kills. Not only do we receive motes of light through killing, but also charged supers, grenades, and melees. The guardian will kill and grow in light-power until he/she is strong enough to channel that light into raw killing power. And by using light to kill, the guardian transforms the slain enemies into more light (orbs), which may be granted to his/her fireteam. So in terms of sword logic, guardians necessarily remain neutral due to game mechanics, because they are constantly releasing their light power to slay enemies in a perpetual cycle. So they don't accumulate power indefinitely to become a god (at least the player character), although lore characters may attempt to accumulate. P.S. After looking at the King's Fall Grimoire, this passage stuck out to me: [quote]How did you find your way into the King's Cellars? How did you even recognize that benighted draught for what it was? Do you not know that the Hive pursue Light precisely for the purpose of devouring it with slavering jaws and slick greedy gulping throats? How did you take (or rather, un-Take) the Blighted Light that Oryx gathered to offer in sacrifice to Akka, and ignite it so that it burned and burned the Darkness? It was barely Light anymore. But you took it. And when you took it, you did not keep it. You set it free.[/quote] It appears that the guardians indeed have a habit of taking light from their vanquished enemies and releasing it, rather than accumulating it. In this case they (un)took the blighted light from Oryx's throne world and released it (possibly allowing Oryx's power/essence/soul) to be dispersed. This may have occurred when the guardians defeated Crota, which explains why there were still remnants of Crota's soul. Because we as guardians do not devour our foes like the gods beyond the veil, because we do not take possession of their throne worlds, we therefore destroy the logic systems within those throne worlds, rather than merely "mantling" the gods (taking up their mantle) and pursuing their original goals. And in destroying their sword logic, we have destroyed an axiom, the highest truth, have we not?
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If you're correct, Eris' decision to take Oryx' sword and also to create the ToM is laden with consequence. She is effectively NOT releasing what we have gathered and setting a dangerous precedent for guardians; perhaps the first small step on a path to "godhood".
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Edited by ScientificBEST: 1/27/2016 4:02:46 PMWow, I never thought about it like that. Perhaps the hive have influenced her mind so much that she can't help but want to accumulate power. That's all she knows.
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It would make sense for the light to manipulate the sword logic differently via different use of the mechanics...letting it free vs. consolidating. By the OP's axiom II, killing a truth proves strength more than it, and can grant godhood of a sense as it applies in this definition. It points back to use of the same sword logic...so is the light's purpose to diffuse strength across the universe? I go back to the grim card that speaks to the queens. The last para speaks to the one other purpose different than the warring queen...this would apply to the traveler and light possibly.
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Yeah, I think that's what I was getting at. Which grim card are you referring to about the queens?
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Ghost Fragment: Darkness 3 card. It is about one set of 3 queens where the strong wins out and possibility of another set of queens that co-exist instead of fight, but it implies that eventually they would still meet to determine the final shape of the universe. I see the Hive and the Traveler as representations of the metaphorical queens, each vying with the other for ultimate control. Oryx representing the queen of armies, the Traveler as the queen of spears.
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Yeah, that's an amazing card. I think it might be too simplistic to directly associate one queen with each civilization (like biblical apocalypse theorists do with the "four horsemen" in Revelation). The various queens may just represent different ways of existing in each stage of the universe prior to warring with each other, and the queen of armies tends to win in each case. But if you're right about the queens representing the current civilizations in competition, you might be right that the Traveller is the queen of the spears. But I'm not so sure. To me, it looks like there are at least 4 major civilizations in conflict: the Traveller/Humans (are they separate?), the Hive, the Vex, and the Fallen. We have yet to see a true Fallen raid, though the Prime Servitor and Skolas in PoE are at the very least demigods of the Fallen. I bet there is a Servitor equivalent of Crota or Atheon out there somewhere. I say this to counter the idea that the Fallen are somehow not strong enough to be in the running for total victory over the universe. My point is that while I can see the Hive as the queen of armies, the Traveller as the queen of spears, and the Vex as the queen of the just laws [b]or[/b] the queen of the tower ([i]maybe[/i]...), I don't see how the Fallen are represented by any of these queens, and the metaphor kinda falls apart. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that I'm unsure about it.
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Well, perhaps the Eliksni were chosen and were not strong enough spears to stand up to the armies, so the Traveler moved on. Perhaps it is just looking for the right "country" to set up law and learning with spears to defend against the darkness queen of armies. It was ready to move on from Sol as well but it was crippled. Though I'm not sure if it still stays by choice...not sold on the idea that it could so easily be crippled. I do agree that it seems simplistic, but I'm not sure how deep it was intended to go as a teen game. The metaphor applies to any competing entities, whether it be the atom against the primordial soup or two races, so going down to the Traveler is X and Hive are Y is rather superficial. Interesting thoughts though, and like I've said, I'm not as expert in these theories as others, I just like the story for what we have. Good convo, thx. Don't get much of that on most forum posts.
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Yeah I think you're right, there really is no telling how that metaphor was intended to be understood. For all we know some new information could arrive in Destiny 2 and clear up all these questions for us. And yes, it's quite refreshing to have a rational conversation in the Bungie forums, of all places!
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This is the most interesting comment in the thread. On the subject of ghosts, I think it could simply be explained as the ghost performing repairs. The ghosts don't seem like they can recreate a guardian from nothing, at least from what I've seen. What you propose seems possible though, so I can't discount it. As for the Traveler and the Darkness, I think the Light only follows the sword logic when it needs to in order to stop the Darkness. Prior to being crippled, the Traveler just went from species to species to foster stability and progress while the Darkness just rampantly spreads destruction and instigates brutal competition. Interesting observation on growing stronger through killing just like those who use the sword logic, but I think that's just game mechanics—I'm not sure if we really are getting stronger from it in the lore beyond the combat experience. Minor point, but Oryx was a he. Oryx used to be female before he took the king morph, but when he did, the pronouns changed. All Hive seem to start as female before they take another morph (male knight, fertile female wizard). I think Xivu Arath breaks this rule though; she remained female, or at least still choses to be refered to in female pronouns despite taking the knight morph.
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Edited by ScientificBEST: 1/20/2016 1:46:22 AMRegarding the light of the Traveller and the darkness, I think it's interesting that in all the language regarding light and darkness, the darkness seeks to "devour" or "eat" the light, to engulf it, whereas the light is always described as "piercing" or somehow penetrating the darkness. But you don't really hear of the darkness piercing the light or the light engulfing the darkness. The thanatonauts engage in this act of piercing the veil, to see visions beyond it. And the relic used to defeat Atheon was placed by Kabr in an act of piercing light: [quote]These are the last words of Kabr, the Legionless: I have destroyed myself to do this. They have taken my Ghost. They are in my blood and brain. But now there is hope. [b]I have made a wound in the Vault. I have pierced it and let in the Light.[/b] Bathe in it, and be cleansed. Look to it, and understand: From my own Light and from the thinking flesh of the Vex I made a shield. The shield is your deliverance. It will break the unbreakable. It will change your fate. Bind yourself to the shield. Bind yourself to me. And if you abandon your purpose, [b]let the Vault consume you, as it consumed me.[/b] Now it is done. If I speak again, I am not Kabr.[/quote] And there are numerous other examples of this piercing/devouring interaction between light and darkness. I'm not sure what to make of it, but if we are to understand how the gods of the Destiny universe interact with each other, this is probably important to keep in mind.
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It is likely just mechanics as you said, but killing directly increases the strength of our light through abilities and our attack/defense. Reading into it and making mechanics fit into the idea is very likely. I like to say "she" as a call out to the lore, plus it can be funny...amazing how many ppl over chat ask what I'm talking about, but true to your point, the mantle was her choice and as Oryx, he is appropriate.