originally posted in:The Ashen Conflux
Sort of....
You're clearly drawing from Super String/M-Theory which (in order to get the math to work out that allows it to function as a "Unified Field Theory"/"Theory of Everything") requires that there be ELEVEN dimensions.
Ten dimensions of space and one dimension of time.
So your points address the question of "Where are the other 7 dimensions" relative to the FOUR dimensions of Space-Time that we can observe.
1 One possibility Is your first point. That they are tiny "rolled up" dimensions that exist far below the subatomic level, and thus (for now) too small for us to observe.
2. The other posibility is your second point. Which is that the dimensions are too MASSIVE to observe, because they essentially exist in the form of parallel universerses, and that our universe is but one in a system of multiple universes. This possibility is intriguing because it offers a possible explanation as to why gravity is so weak in comparison to the other fundamental forces of the universe (Electromagnetism, Strong and Weak nuclear forces). That the (theorized) particles that transmit gravititational forces are able to move BETWEEN branes (universes) while the other three forces are confined to our universe (brane). It also may explain how the Hive are able to store information/communicate in dimensions outside of our every day experience ("gravity waves").
3. Third possibility is some combination of the two.
In referencing the Beckenstein Limit what the Destiny writers were basically telling you is that the Hive are not beholden to physics (of thos universe) as we currently understand them. So that they clealry have access to dimensions (or even universes) that either are not accounted for in our current understanding of Physics.....or operate according to an entirely different set of physics. A possibility hinted in the opening story mission of TTK, when our Ghost tries to make sense of hte "inter-dimensional goo" that the Taken leave behind...and how the process of trying to take/rip from this level of Space-Time fails against a dead Cabal. That the process requires "a living host". ...and that the space being opened upon doesn't operate "by our laws of physics".
Even more interesting is the "Ascendant Plane" (Brane?)
However, what really opens up some mind-bending possibilities is the difference between the Hive/Taken and the Vex. Which suggest that their technologies/powers are fundamentally different. Both seemed to have mastered the ability to travel through space (supraluminal flight, teleportation)....but only the Vex seemed to have mastered frank time Travel.
One possibility is that the Hive/Taken can only move from one spatial dimension to another, while The Vex can manipulate the whole Space/Time fabric. At least the primary four dimesions of our everyday experience.
English
-
Time isnt a dimension Space is not 3d+t Heres an example When the photon moves a Planck distance, it is moving exclusively in space and not in absolute time. The photon can be thought of as moving from point 1 to point 2, and its position at point 1 is “before” its position at point 2 in the sense that the number 1 comes before the number 2 in the numerical order. Numerical order is not equivalent to temporal order, i.e., the number 1 does not exist before the number 2 in time, only numerically. To say time is a dimension is to say we are 4th dimensional, we live with length, width, height and time, why isnt everything considered 4d? Because no one difinitively has proven the 4th dimension and theyre all theories
-
Edited by kellygreen45: 11/25/2015 8:50:24 PMYou're trying to apply quantum theory to relativistic phenomena. Doesn't work. General relativity has shown that ---above the quantum level---Space-Time operates as a four dimensional fabric that bends and stretches in ways that preserve the speed of light as the ulitimate speed limit. We do live in four dimensions. When you set up a meeting with some one you give them FOUR dimensions...which correspond to a specific space-time location: "meet me at 101 Elm St., Chicago, IL on Mon. November 23rd, 2015 at 8 Am. The street address give the person the dimension in space. The (clock) time and calendar date give them the time dimension they need in order to be WHERE you want them WHEN you want them there. Try to move at [i]c[/i] space compresses and time slows (dilates). Gravity also alters Space-time. Curving space and (again) slowing time.
-
Yes this is how weve devised a supposed time travel which is just beating a photon to a certain place by not bending to slight curvatures in space I still believe space is the 4th dimension due to it being the medium of which the other 3 take place, without space none of these could even exist Time wouldnt exist without space
-
Edited by kellygreen45: 11/25/2015 10:36:55 PMChicken vs Egg. Space-Time was created together. Big Bang. ...and the path of photons WILL bend in strong gravitational fields (curved space-time). Its called "Gravitational Lensing".
-
No I said we wouldnt bend while traveling to beat the photon curving to outside gravitational forces I.e. black holes, planetary gravity, stars etc.... This is just a theory of "time travel" which isnt true time travel just a shortcut
-
Any supraluminal travel is essentially "time" travel. Whether you get there by compressing space-time in front of you, or curving it so that it connects on the opposite ends of a wormhole.
-
I wouldnt say beating light equals time travel Sure in technicality you can call it time travel but you cannot go backward only beat our standard of time to the intended destination which is the photon which is a shortcut Not time travel
-
Leading physicists do refer to our observable universe as 4D. If a photon moved from point 2 to point 1, and from there to point 3, which have all been arbitrarily named, it doesn't go through those in numerical order. It does, however, go through them in a temporal order. It [i]went[/i] to points 2 and 1 in the past, and it [i]is[/i] at point 3 in the present
-
Yes the 4th dimension is arguable seeing as how we have no proof but time is measured by light or at least thats how weve devised a sort of "time travel" which is just beating the light to the designation due to photons not traveling in a straight line which I dont really find as time travel more of a short cut
-
Edited by Witan: 11/25/2015 1:03:55 AMRegarding the VEX, it may be that their abilities are more similar than the story would lead us to believe. The evidence, to me, suggests that the Vex exist in the counter flow of time having been created in the future as a relatively primitive AI which is becoming increasingly complex moving backwards in time. Having, in the future, turned planets into machines it would, to us, seem as though this was done instantly. That for the Vex, Time Travel (outside of VoG) is only ever forward (our backward). Such that they do not move through time but instead create a non-event stasis allowing them to travel into the future (our past) without experiencing intervening time. That VoG is less of a time travel zone but more of a coexisting nexus of space/times confined within the vault. When a portal opens to past or future it is not opening to a different when but is opening to a different where and each of the available where's were filled with vex at a certain when. Thus the vex can simulate time travel by manipulating their own future which in turn manipulates our past which causes our present to manipulate their past. World sized minds are needed to calculate which future changes will cause the correct changes to our past to cause us to change our present thus changing their past and subsequently their future. In our past (their future) we have (will) raid VoG and 'kill Aetheon'. Because we have raided VoG we can stop the Taken in our future from taken the VoG. For the Vex the taken attacked VoG in their past. They calculated that in their future they must choose to allow us to raid VoG, which means in their further future they must remember to let Kabr create the relic so that we can stop the Taken after surviving VoG who are the real threat to the Vex having similar multidimensional abilities.
-
Amazing theory man. VoG's story is already complex but this adds another set of layers to its depth.
-
Like I said. Mind-bending. :)
-
Totally
-
I like the idea that the vex allowed us to successfully raid VoG to live on to stop the taken from invading it. mind=blown
-
Awesome post enjoyed reading it!
-
Edited by MAD X H0USE: 11/24/2015 6:10:59 PMIf the Ascendant Plane you're referring to is the opposite side of the Hive Portals, then I would say we've found our answer. Basically, they are able to store this unimaginable amount of information within The Ascendant Plane because it simply exists outside the realm of -and is not bound by the laws of - our reality. A manifestation of the paracausal powers granted by the Deep, channeled through the Worm Gods to the Hive. Essentially, an alternate dimension (Throne World, as it's commonly referred to) made real through the power of the Sword Logic, shaped by the will of Oryx, accessible only by Ascendant Hive. A Dimension "...predicated on death and the passage through cut spaces... created from the minds and worms of our lords." – [url=http://db.destinytracker.com/grimoire/enemies/books-of-sorrow/xxi-an-incision]XXI: An Incision[/url] [url=http://db.destinytracker.com/grimoire/enemies/books-of-sorrow/xl-an-emperor-for-all-outcomes]XL: An Emperor For All Outcomes[/url] has the first (chronologically) recorded mention of the World's Grave outside of the story mission itself. Shortly after Oryx banishes Crota into the Vex Time Gate network for opening a dimensional wound into his Throne World, comes the below passage: [quote]He called Savathûn to meet in the material world. She told him that the Vex worked tirelessly to understand everything, so that they could build a victory condition for every possible end state of the universe. “Then I must be a better king,” Oryx said. “If they want to build an emperor for all outcomes, then I will be the king of only one. I will follow the Deep wherever it goes, and document its power. [b]Let us create a catalog of the grave of worlds[/b], which will be our map to victory.”[/quote] From [url=http://db.destinytracker.com/grimoire/enemies/exalted-hive/kranox-the-graven]Kranox, The Graven[/url] we are told of the types of information kept in the World's Grave. [quote]Kranox, the Graven is said to be the Keeper of the Worlds' Grave, a vast repository chronicling the Hive's history of interstellar conquests. Every world they have devoured, every life they have eradicated, every enemy they've faced. [/quote] From [url=http://db.destinytracker.com/grimoire/enemies/books-of-sorrow/xxx-a-golden-amputation]XXX: A Golden Amputation[/url] we gain perspective on the scale of war Oryx has been waging against the cosmos... [quote]Behold the wrath of Oryx, coiled for ten thousand years.[/quote] So for more than ten-thousand Years (at this point in Time) Oryx and his armies have been growing, and exterminating at an [i]exponential rate. [/i] [spoiler]"eighteen species this century alone" From [url=http://db.destinytracker.com/grimoire/enemies/books-of-sorrow/xxiii-fire-without-fuel]XXIII: Fire Without Fuel[/url] "We have exterminated three hundred and six worlds." From [url=http://db.destinytracker.com/grimoire/enemies/books-of-sorrow/xxiv-the-scream]XXIV: THE SCREAM[/url], ...all WELL before the killing of Akka and Coronation of Oryx. Before the implementation of Tithing and the 1,140 yr Crusade against the Ecumene. I'm no mathematician, but I imagine someone out there with an interest could hazard a guess at the model needed to come up with a total number of planets/species eradicated in this 10,000 yr period of time. [/spoiler] There's no real frame of reference between the writing of these passages and current Destiny timeline, but we can assume by Dinklebot's observation of the physically unimaginable amount of information stored in the World's Grave that they've very likely erased a significant portion of the known Universe from existence by the time we gain access. A whole corner of Space, consumed by the Darkness. Crazy to think about, right?
-
Great post!
-
Right out of my mouth, good stuff
-
I like you too
-
Yes. But nowhere near as crazy as the Devil's Bargain Oryx struck with the Darkness.
-
"To live forever, you must kill forever" "What happens when I run out of things to kill?"
-
Everything that has a beginning...has an end. The Devil usually leaves out those kinds of details....
-
Edited by MAD X H0USE: 11/24/2015 7:59:23 PMMildly off-topic yet semi-relevant lore question... Now that we have slain Oryx, have we established ourselves as God-like entities in Hive infrastructure? By the Sword Logic, we should be among the most powerful beings in all the Universe at this point. Or can followers of the light not draw upon the Power of the Deep like that? I suppose it presents a sort of cosmic conflict of interests. lol
-
Edited by TheWagn: 11/25/2015 2:11:31 AM5 DLC's from now, oryx's 2 brothers/sisters will come to claim us and avenge the hive. Real shit gonna be goin down then
-
I like you