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originally posted in:The Ashen Conflux
originally posted in: Lore Rumble!
11/17/2015 10:32:45 PM
18
Dredgen Yor- A maelstrom of dark magic. Yet the dark deal he made certainly holds him to the logic of the blade. A weakness. Would anyone understand this enough to beat him like Shin Malphur did? Jaren Ward- A Hunter (or rather, a pre-Hunter, Ranger) now dead, that was once legendary. Would lose to the twisted Rose that once beat him before. Right? Kabr- A Titan who dove headlong into forces barely understood. While he chose sacrifice for the greater good, would anyone be able to best hin in a rumble? Maybe the one who inspired him to seek the Vault. Osiris. Wei Ning- A tireless Titan who had a fist almost as feared as Saint-14's headbutt. Eventually died from the mistake of taking on Crota's Legions. Most likely would be defeated by the hive magic of Thorn. An independent Titan who don't need no man, regardless Toland- An obssessive old man with deep knowledge of science, able to manipulate it into what the weak minded might call "magic." One of the top 3 contenders, even more if you include that he is a Sunsinger who understands how death works to a degree higher than even the Thanonauts. Osiris- A man labeled a blasphemous for asking "why?" Found revelation after revelation into the true nature of the Darkness. Exiled, but a great fighter in the City's struggles. He was "everywhere at once [on the battlefield]" and has since been into the pattern obsessed Vex. He has witnessed the patterns of battle and history, and can now utilize them for humanity's saftey. Understanding the patterns should allow him to defeat Dredgen Yor- and the deeper capabilities of Osiris and Warlocks in general would insure victory. Osiris wins.
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  • Toland spoke with the darkness

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  • Toland spoke with the Deathsinger Ir Yût and his soul flowed in dark power

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  • Toland spoke with the darkness.

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  • Thats not meant as a literal conversation. Toland studied the Darkness as an obssesion. It told him that in the same way a science experiement tells you that chemical reactions make exploding paper volcano.

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  • It seems like a it was. Toland embraced the darkness. He didn't fight it

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  • Edited by Qwerty: 11/23/2015 9:16:21 PM
    Yea. He embraced the Deathsinger's Song and had a little conversation that defined him a friend. Toland is tied to the Hive, who are of Darkness, not the Darkness itself. The Hive have a compact with the worms that can utilize the Darkness (but the worms are not the darkness, they just flow through it). The Hive embrace it. Toland embraces the Darkness by embracing the Hive's embracing of the Darkness... if that makes sense. [url=http://destinydb.com/grimoire/701390-ghost-fragment-the-hellmouth]Read this grimoire if you haven't[/url]

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  • Edited by Ghost593835: 11/23/2015 9:52:26 PM
    He said he spoke with the darkness itself. He didn't say the hive. And I have read that. he was speaking with eris about a gods might forges a orger. He said the darkness itself. If it was a the death singer he would of said the death singer. If was talking about the death singer I don't think he would be there with eris.

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  • Edited by Qwerty: 11/23/2015 10:05:20 PM
    The grimoire you are refering to is entirely seperate from the one I am. The Deathsinger killing him happened after the Ogre conversation. I am attributing the Deathsinger event to his character as far as being obsessed with the Darkness. He studied the Hive as only a Warlock can, to the deepest it can go. He learned, most likely on a surface level until he "died," that the Darkness was a manifestation of the laws that bind existence (The Law of the Jungle, or Sword-Logic). I'm saying that a better fit for that sentence is "My studies of the Darkness told me." They phrased it the original way for the writing effect. If he had truly talked with the Darkness like the Osmium Heirs had, then reforging himself (the Deathsinger event) would be unecessary.

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  • Edited by Ghost593835: 11/23/2015 10:44:51 PM
    Not necessarily. He spoke with the darkness. Toland was into the hive for his own game. The darkness does not give for that is what the sky does. Toland took what he wanted. For the deep is about taking what you want. Not getting. The darkness spoke with Toland this I believe. If he said. From my studies of the darkness. It would of made sense but he didn't. he said he spoke with the darkness itself. I do not believe the darkness spoke to him to turn him. For toland was interested in the song of death. Meeting the darkness doesn't mean you meet your goals. He wanted to hear the song oryx's daughters made. He was reborn with his death. The darkness did not make the song. Oryx's daughter did make. The darkness did not meet the heirs. The worm gods meant with them. Who worship the deep. Which gives them power.

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  • Assuming your pretense of the Darkness actually speaking to the mad warlock, why would he still be trying to benefit humanity? Even when he transcended mortal limitations by essentially becoming an Ascendent (and entering the death cannon that is the Oversoul), he still says that he has work to do. He works to understand the Hive's Overworld and tries to contact Osiris (who was entering into the river of time). By your pretense, he "took" understanding from a literal conversation with the Darkness (like the Osmium Heirs). Why would that not change him more, like the heirs.

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  • A mad warlock yes. Did you not now the over world's are connected to the vex gates? Do you not know the difference the worm gods and the darkness. They are not the darkness for they flow through it. The formless ones motives are truly unknown, the formless one could have taken interest into toland. Spoke to him. Does not mean he would offer him something. Toland is still on our side, toland is not one to be turned. He spoke with the darkness. I believe this, with more heart than the hive. I have not come to change your mind. You think he was talking about the death singer then to shall stay that way.

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  • Edited by Qwerty: 11/24/2015 1:17:31 AM
    Can you clarify what you are trying to prove? You are going in circles to say that he talked to the Darkness. I have made my case as to what happened, so I am now talking under the pretense that he did literally talk to the Darkness. So what does that mean for the future? Why is that point important to make? As for the rest: The Overworld is connected to the Gates in that Time is really just another layer of Space. "Timetravel" is not jumping foward and backward, its jumping side to side- branch from branch on Yggdrasil. The connection between the Vex and Hive in our universe it that Crota brought them here, and they understood Sword-Logic as the best method for survival. I said earlier that the worms were not the Darkness, that they flowed through it and utilized it. The Darkness can be physical (like when it talked to the Osmium Throne Heirs), it can be the other side of Light (a sword to be wielded), and it can be an ideology (Sword-Logic). Its not a far stretch to say Toland could have talked to the Darkness, but it is irrelevant if it has no effect on future events. You need to lead it somewhere (such as him making a deal for knowledge). If you can't, its irrelevant. All lore mention Toland as obsessed with the Hive and he learned of their "magic," that is his only connection to the Darkness. Osiris is the one who tried to understand the Darkness itself- which first led him to the Hive (he predicted Oryx), then the Vex, then the Nine and Awoken.

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  • So at the end you think Osiris can beat toland? The one who embraced death. At the end toland can not be turned to the dark side and I doubt Osiris can either. I don't even sewing them fighting since toland knows him. I wonder who inspired who.

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  • Osiris was with the City during its early years. He fought in Six Front and left after the Twilight Gap. Toland was probably exiled sometime before Twilight Gap, and he is referenced in the past a lot (whereas Osiris is present tense). So probably Toland inspired Osiris, or they worked at the same time.

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  • I would expect Osiris to be the one to be kicked out first. Since he influenced people to go to studies other things than the traveler. Seeing that Osiris might be smarter than toland. Which would make sense. He would destroy toland probably since he knows more.

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  • He spoke with the darkness before going down into the pit

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  • And that affected what?

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  • He just gained some insight.

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