Edit 1: Moving this right to the top because it's apparent people post their opinions before they finish reading:
I have 100 wins in Rumble. I've completed this task. Any "get good" arguments have been quelled here. I posted this for the general wellbeing of the players who play Rumble, not as a selfish attempt to make winning games for myself easier.
Here's the original post:
Rumble has a couple of issues that are severely overlooked. I love this mode, but it can be better. I'll be delving into both issues in this thread, and suggesting fair ways to fix them.
1. [b]A win is granted only to the player who comes in first.[/b]
2. [b]Players can join games that have already begun.[/b]
Time to delve.
Issue 1:
[u]A win is granted only to the player who comes in first.[/u]
Many of you are probably thinking this is fair. There are a few reasons why it isn't.
Here's the first:
Hunters have an undeniable advantage over the other classes. Why? Supers can get multiple kills rather than just one. Golden Gun and Arc Blade both have the potential to earn you 3+ kills. With Fist of Havoc or Nova Bomb, you'll be [i]lucky[/i] to get more than one. Luck aside, here's the issue:
Maximizing your chances of getting more than one kill requires holding on to your super and waiting for the right time to strike. This means you won't be able to use it as often as a Hunter, who can just use their super upon or soon after getting it, while retaining the potential to earn more than one kill. It is a blatant class advantage. This specific part of the issue will certainly be less of a problem in The Taken King because of Sunbreakers (SGA: change it to Breaker. What better way to break things than with a hammer? Striker-Defender-Breaker. It's just logical. Destiny already has Sunbreakers. DO IT! JUST DO IT! YES YOU CAN!) and Stormcallers. Excellent job, Bungie, on creating these subclasses. It will give Titans and Warlocks supers that have a fighting chance against this issue.
Here's the second:
Some players can do basically as well as the winner. There are lots of times when it's you and one or two other players racing for the finish. Often times, it will end with only one winning, even though that winner's competition deserved it just as much. Why shouldn't they be credited just because they had one less kill (or [i]more[/i] kills) than the winner? Nothing is gained from what almost equal, equal, or more effort and skill than the winner brings forth.
Now, onto the last and more important part of this issue:
The simple fact that only one player is granted a win.
I'm well aware that "The Crucible is no place for Mercy". A loss is a loss. But maybe it shouldn't be. Notice how I capitalized Mercy? Mercy of Osiris. You know, the modifier that lets you... Not lose? What I am pointing out by bringing this up is that Rumble is a casual playlist, while Trials of Osiris is the opposite of casual. In Trials (a competitive environment), you can lose, but not lose. In Rumble (a casual environment) you can lose, and you lose. Doesn't seem right, right? "But why not the other playlists huehuehue?" Rumble is different. In Rumble, there are six possible winners. In any other mode, there are two possible winners.
[b]So, here's a fair fix that I propose:[/b]
[u]Grant a win to the top 50% of players in a Rumble match.[/u]
This idea won't look familiar to most of you, but it will to Bungie. In Halo 3's version of Rumble (Rumble Pit), a win is granted to the top 50% of players, or the top 3 players. Still think a win is a win and a loss is a loss? That's a valid and fair opinion. What this will do aside from making it more fair is incentivize more Guardians to play Rumble. "But what's the point of winning when the rewards are still random? What other reward would matter?" Most of you won't give a gliding gorgon, but [i]Grimoire.[/i] To earn progress on your Rumble Grimoire card, you must earn a win, not just a completion. In Halo 3, the point of playing Rumble Pit (other than for boundless fun) is to earn 1 experience point. This is only earned by winning. So, if the top 50% earned what they were after in the past, why can't they earn what is essentially the equivalent now? Even if you don't care about Grimoire, consider that many do. These players are dedicated and deserve to be rewarded for that.
[u][I have edited this part in. Commenters have suggested that only those who have gained 2000+ points should be granted a win. I think this is a better idea than my own and I'm all for it.][/u]
That's why Issue 1 is an issue and this is a fair fix for it. With that at a close, here's the second issue.
Issue 2:
[u]Players can join games that have already begun.[/u]
The explanation for this issue won't be nearly as long as the last one. It's a lot more simple, and so is the fix.
In Rumble, players quit games just like in any other playlist, and just like in any other playlist, players are forced to join games. With any other playlist, this isn't a problem because it helps to keep the teams balanced. One team is put at a disadvantage when a player quits that team, and when a player joins that team, it helps to quell that disadvantage.
With Rumble, however, [i]the only player put at a disadvantage is the joining player.[/i] It is Exoticly rare, one could say, that a player who joins a Rumble match in progress will win that match. This has nothing to do with their level of competency. It's simply unfair to be placed at such a disadvantage, truly so. There is clearly no logical reason for this to have been implemented. It keeps the pace of the match up? Sure, but it wastes one player's time and effort. Some of you might say "But with the new Mercy rule being implemented in The Taken King, that problem is solved". False. All it will do is soften the blow. Most players trying to achieve a win will just quit anyway. Thank you again, Bungie, this time for the Mercy rule. I love it and it's a great idea. But in Rumble? It has no value to the kinds of players I just discussed.
The fix? [u]Simply remove join-in progress from Rumble. It's the right thing to do.[/u]
With that, I'm done discussing the two main points of my argument. What I have next is something that pertains to both points and Destiny as a whole. This is a quote from DeeJ, our excellent community manager (no sarcasm, it's sad that I even feel the need for clarification), that I have procured from an IGN video:
"Destiny: The Taken King New Gameplay - IGN Live: Gamescom 2015".
"We've said (on) numerous occasions that one of the things we learned from the first year of Destiny is we want to be more respectful of the players' time, and we want to reward the players' time. You're playing the game, you're having fun, and you should have something to show for it..."
[url=http://youtu.be/9cNIu0fMtMg]Here's a link to the video.[/url] Skip to around 8:35 to hear the above quote.
With that, please discuss this issue. Agree with me, counter me, suggest different methods of fixing Rumble, whatever. Please contribute something if you took the time to read my post, even if it's to say that you disagree. The issues I've presented should at least be acknowledged, and that's my goal.
Closing words:
I love Bungie, and I've been a fan for many years. They're easily my favorite game developer and I have loads of respect and admiration for them. Like any other developer, their games will contain flaws. Just wanted to make it clear that this post isn't attacking them in any way.
TL;DR: There isn't one. For you to present a valid argument against mine on this issue, you have to understand my argument.
Thanks for seeing what I have to say, Guardians, and [b]Be Brave.[/b]
Edit 2: Moving my last edit from the bottom to the top of this post has dramatically changed the results of this poll. Right now, "I want change" vs. "I don't want change" is at about a 60/40 ratio. That's not to say that 60% agree with everything that I said, but rather that 60% want change against these issues in some way. Some commenters have come up with a pretty good way to make my first solution better:
Only grant a win to players who have gained 2000 points or higher. This is a good way to ensure that the people who didn't come in first but still performed about as well (again, if not [i]better.[/i] I have lost games having more kills than the winner.) as the winner actually [i]deserve[/i] to win. I've edited my solution to reflect this. Tell me what you think. Thanks for this idea, guys.
Edit 3: I should let it be known that I intentionally left out the issue of players teaming up. While I acknowledge that it's an issue however infrequent it may be, I don't think there's a fair solution for it that can be applied any time soon. Stopping players from doing this would stop other players from having genuine matches with their friends, which is more common. Private matches was suggested in the comments as good way to stop this problem, and while that's on the Community Wish List, please keep in mind that the CWL is not a to-do list for Bungie.
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1 ReplyWe did it!!! Top 3 earn a win!!!!
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1 ReplyJust would like to confirm that places in the top three only counts towards quests, not grimoire. Placed third twice and second once. Grimoire has not gone up.
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1 ReplyThe new update to rumble doesnt work, its problaby a bug that is causing it. Top 3 players in rumble doesnt count as a win for quest, also doesnt count for grimoire but they never stated that it would in the patch. Fix this please.
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I was looking around the forums to see peoples thoughts on the Crucible and found this. So, your the one who made it easier to win Rumble. I have to thank you on that. I always came in second because the guy who won always seems to landslide everyone else in the match.
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4 RepliesNeed some help getting more replies? Make the damn thing shorter. You expect me to read a chapter from a book that should've been explained in a page.
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1.2,3 should place as wins towards grimmore
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The time is optimal. Bump.
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Bump.
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Send them home crying!
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2 RepliesIssue 2 could be solved with skill based matchmaking I have joined games halfway over and won before
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Bumping for Rumble Justice. It would be nice to see a reply, Cozmo, even if it's to say that Rumble will be kept how it is. I think some sort of reply is warranted due to the results of the poll indicating that the current state of Rumble isn't optimal. :)
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4 RepliesDude the only issue is joining into a match anyone who try's can win and a shotgun melee kills a hunter immediately so hunters have a disadvantage cause they can pop a super and die I play my warlock and consistently win The only issue with rumble is join in progress and thorn/last word
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1 ReplyThe spawns are an issue too, I've spawned on top of countless people
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I agree, but I also think that the top 3 players should get a Glimmer reward (1st with the most and 3rd with the least) this gives the incentive to win and not just try and be in the 3 players.
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4 RepliesEdited by TheKungLao: 8/14/2015 1:32:04 AMI think that's a fair assessment of the situation in rumble. Especially the part about being dropped into a match of rumble, that should have never been allowed to go to launch. I like some of your ideas. I'd also like to add that in rumble, fireteams should not be allowed. Too many times I've seen people treat rumble like they are on a team. Some use fireteams for boosting rumble stats.
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2 Replieslast time i played rumble i had 2 less kills than the first place winner but was the only one with a positive kd, thought that was kinda bullshit and haven't played that mode since.
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9 Repliessome valid points. I also think fireteams should not be allowed into Rumble. Too many times i have played against teams that work together in Rumble. A fireteam of 6 would be a different story.
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+1 vote
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People should realize that rumble is an issue.
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Bump.
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1 ReplyI will be updating my OP with a good suggestion that some commenters have made at some point tonight. Thanks for the conversation, guys.
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2 RepliesI respect your concern for players and the time they spend in Crucible. I just don't think Rumble is all that broken. For your first issue: It's rare that two people have almost the same scores. Rumble is a 1 v everyone style of match. Therefore, it is only right that the top player is the winner, even if their score is higher by only 50 points. A possible fix to this (if it really needs one) is to give better random loot chances to the top two or three players. Honestly, people who play rumble usually understand what they are getting into and not everyone cares about the Grimoire score. At least until they make that score matter. You also seem to misunderstand the Hunter supers. Sure they can activate it and take out several targets, but it takes skill and planning to do so. The super meter for the Hunters deplete quickly and running doesn't help it either. If the Hunter activates it too far away from the targets, then the super meter will run out before they kill a target or get one target instead. If the Hunter activates it too close to the targets, they will be gunned down and the super will be wasted. That is why you can't just go off half-cocked as a Hunter. There is planning involved. Warlocks are a bit overpowered (but not broken) in my opinion. They are the only class to have straight up all useful perks for their super perk tree. Not to mention that they can melee you around corners and have good reach (Gunslingers have a longer reach with the throwing knife, but can't get you around corners. Bladedancers Blinkstrike only activates when you are already close so it's just a speed strike essentially and can't get around corners). If anything, the Defender Titan is in need of a buff. I don't think it's right that only two Golden Gun shots or a Nova Bomb's residual vortex can take out the Ward of Dawn or drain the life away of the Defender Titan inside of the Ward of Dawn. There is almost no reason to use it in 1v 1 or 1 v everyone situations (you could use a full armor build with the first perk of the super perk tree to dramatically reduce damage from enemies while within your Ward of Dawn and extend the time that Ward of Dawn lasts, but they could just wait until your Ward of Dawn expires). For your second issue: TrulyBobBarker already made the best argument for it. I think it is unfair that a new player can join and will be immediately at a disadvantage, but they could (and most do) just leave the match anyway. So that point is almost redundant. I personally stay in a match if I'm put in it because I really hate the people who just leave because the team or they are losing (you people know who you are) but that's an argument for another time. I could put out an argument against it, but I feel that TrulyBobBarker said it best already.
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2 RepliesEdited by TrulyBobBarker: 8/12/2015 11:14:21 PMYour first point - on hunters, these are the only class who can activate there super and not get a single kill. As a Titan or warlock, besides radiance and the bubble, if you activate your super and die before it finishes you are not losing your super power however with hunters if you die when you are 90% through the animation you will not have any super power after. This is a fair trade off, you can get more kills on average but you also risk losing all your super and not getting a chance to even kill. - about one winner, any competition grants one player/team a "win" vs others. Ties don't happen in championship games or any other game that doesn't have a season. Asking to have a tie for someone who did "just" as good is basically like having two super bowl / Stanley cup / etc etc winners and that doesn't nor should it happen. I'm sorry but if I got more kills/points/etc I am a the winner and you came in second, your basically making it so that person who is in the lead will quit trying to win as it won't matter if they are first or second. You suggest having the top 50% earn the reward and mention a fix later on point two that I will address later. - crucible and trials, you compare trials to crucible and it would seem like this is a fair comparison however I see a flaw with this. Crucible is handled by the tower to hone guardian skills, this makes sense as the darkness in lore at least can kill your guardian and steal the light from your ghost leaving you dead and not coming back this time. Trials is put on by a separate cult that we have no idea what the intention behind this format is. Maybe trials is trying to pit guardians against each other to exploit later for personal agendas, pitting loyal guardians to the tower vs renegade guardians? My point is that trials and crucible are only related by being together in the crucible sub screen from orbit, to compare the reasoning behind these two is impossible as nobody knows the reason for trials to exist... Yet. Your second point - not allowing new players to join an existing match, this seems like a good idea on paper and anyone who works with an engineer will tell you just because it works on paper doesn't mean it will work in reality. This ties in with your earlier fix of having the top 50% win, 3 people would win, now when you have one player leave now only the top two will win... One more drops its the same yet if one more leaves only the top player will still win. You mentioned earlier that if you did just as good you should get a win too, now these two players going head to head for #1 and we are back to square one. Someone who would of been a "winner" may not stay after two people leave as they wouldn't win, now your down to just the top player winning again. Another problem with this is what fun is it to only shoot 2-3 others players the whole time and not get anyone new in? Are there even maps small enough to accommodate just 2-4 players or would it be so sparse it wouldn't even be fun? If me an one other person are kicking so much ass nobody could catch us and one person drops out its left with just us two winning, now anyone who was playing for the win will drop out let's say that is the other three players, now your stick fighting a 1v1. Those are just my thoughts on your thoughts though so I would love to hear what you think also. It's always better to have multiple eyes look at a possible solution from opposing views. Edit: excuse the typos and bad grammar I'm on my phone while driving and can't be bothered with making sure it's 100% perfect.
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1 ReplyHow about a win is granted to those who scored above 2000 points? Or even 1800. Because I have won Rumble matches where I was the only one to break 1000
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1 ReplyThis was very well thought out. I'll be perfectly honest. I was very much against it in the beginning. But you've convinced me. Good job