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7/14/2015 2:55:25 PM
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Naming cheaters is NOT prohibited by the Code of Conduct or Terms of Use

Mods, please stop telling people that it is. If someone posts a video of someone cheating, and/or names them in their post, this is NOT prohibited by the terms that we have all agreed to when using this forum. Sure, you may have made a post or two about it. But, I neither read nor agreed to "posts". I did read and agree to the Code and Terms. Here are the only relevant sections in either document that might deal with naming cheaters, and why it doesn't apply. [b]Code of Conduct[/b] [u]Stuff That Sucks - Personal attacks, harassment, or violations of privacy.[/u] - This is none of those things. We are not making attacks upon their person, but rather publicly showing their gameplay style. If they were doing nothing wrong, then there would be no problem in it. We are not commenting upon them as a person (race, color, creed, religion, sex, sexual orientation, etc.). We are pointing out something that they did in the game. In this, it is little different than posting a video of someone running sword on Crota. [b]Terms of Use[/b] [u]Defame, abuse, harass, stalk, threaten or otherwise violate the legal rights (such as rights of privacy and publicity) of others.[/u] - Note that this ends with, "or otherwise violate the legal rights". This means that the terms that come before this clause are also violations of rights. No one would classify posting a video/name abuse, harassment, stalking or threatening. But, is it defamation? Westlaw defines "defamation" as the act of making untrue statements about another which damages his/her reputation. If we have video proof, it is not untrue. Therefore, making such a post is not "defamation". [u]Publish, post, upload, distribute or disseminate any inappropriate, profane, defamatory, infringing, obscene, indecent or unlawful topic, name, material or information.[/u] - This practice is not inappropriate, profane, infringing, obscene, indecent or unlawful. And, we've dealt with defamatory. But, here's the icing on the cake. [b]Privacy Statement[/b] [u]If you post any information to a public area of the Bungie Services, Bungie Communities, Forums, or other messaging functionality or social or interactive features that may be provided on the Bungie Services, please be aware that it is no longer “personal information” for the purposes of this Privacy Statement, and we or anyone else may use such information without restriction.[/u] - This specifically says that if a person uses any interactive services (multiplayer is interactive, and therefore included), then anyone may use such information without restriction. Bungie has specifically and legally give me permission, via a legally-binding document which I agreed to by playing the game, to make posts which include people's PSN/GT and videos of them. Therefore, moderators, please stop deleting posts that contain this information. These people are CHEATING. They deserve to be banned. In order for that to happen, their actions need to be seen. And, to be seen, their videos must be posted and allowed to be viewed by the masses.

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  • "Naming and shaming" is considered harassment, among other things. This is clearly against the code of conduct. While your efforts to twist the code of conduct and privacy statement to your will are impressive, you will find that the moderators will not heed your request, as they are expected to follow Bungie policy, not MattP14 policy.

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    • Edited by CrestedEBIN: 7/19/2015 7:18:00 PM
      You are an idiot - the first underscored line says you cannot launch a personal attack - naming cheaters is by definition now a personal attack - and is a like to deformation of character which is against the law in real life as well . If u have a problem . Press start tab over left once - click on the users name u have a problem with and report them on any of 9 counts - or a combination of those 9 counts - this is appropriate professional and discrete . It's a built in mechanism - any one who videos another and defaces them for all to see is breaking conduct and should be the ones reprimanded

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      • This post is bullshit and you should delete it.

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        • Ah...5. Man it felt like a couple more but I looked in like a hundred spots so it seemed like more...at least I show the 5. lol

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        • Bungie's official policy

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          • I dont care for the code of conduct in this case. If someone lagswitches or kicks you back to orbit in ToO for f!cks sake tell the community!!

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            • Edited by gallp13: 7/16/2015 8:00:00 PM
              [b]Achronos[/b] - suggest you check your cheeky tone. OP is not twisting your ToC and CoC he is reading them. To state this simply - OP steps a fine but defensible line - CoC and ToU ban attacks on the "[b]person[/b]" of the individual concerned. OP circumvents the potential CoC and ToU violation by focusing on the [b]behaviour[/b] of the individual. The ToU and CoC are silent on this matter. OPs argument stands up - and he should be thanked, not lambasted, for highlighting your sloppy drafting. Best tighten the CoC and ToU to address this matter. EDIT : to make it clear I don't support name and shame it leads to vigilantism. Crowd served justice ain't effective. I objective to Archronos treatment of OP.

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              • There's another thing you forgot: A gamertag/PSN name IS [b]NOT [/b] personal information as [b]EVERYONE [/b] is able to see it in-game freely. So if you think about it the privacy statement shouldn't even apply because it's not private information as it's not personal, it's a digital name that everyone can see.

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              • [quote] [b]Code of Conduct[/b] [u]Stuff That Sucks - Personal attacks, harassment, or violations of privacy.[/u] - This is none of those things. We are not making attacks upon their person, but rather publicly showing their gameplay style. [b]Terms of Use[/b] [u]Defame, abuse, harass, stalk, threaten or otherwise violate the legal rights (such as rights of privacy and publicity) of others.[/u] [u]Publish, post, upload, distribute or disseminate any inappropriate, profane, defamatory, infringing, obscene, indecent or unlawful topic, name, material or information.[/u] Therefore, moderators, please stop deleting posts that contain this information. These people are CHEATING. They deserve to be banned. In order for that to happen, their actions need to be seen. And, to be seen, their videos must be posted and allowed to be viewed by the masses.[/quote] You are REALLY twisting the code of conduct to fit your own argument, when it's really plain as day. See, you even say: "we are not making attacks upon their person", when in reality, by showing the entire world what happened, and showing them cheating and telling people to avoid them, you are attacking them and harassing them. You are publicly shaming them as well. Yes, they are cheaters, and yes, they do need to be punished, but man, you twisted the code of conduct just so you could sound right in your own head, and I'm afraid that that just isn't acceptable, it never is. You can't take any code of conduct and twist the words around to fit your liking, that, in it's own right.. is cheating.

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                • Easiest way to find out who's right and who's wrong in this case is simply take bungies ass to court. I mean if you feel so strongly about it then take them to court. If you're not willing to take them to court then obviously it's not that big of an issue for you. Let me jus say this before some dumbasses jump on my case, I agree with you, you made valid points, however if you don't feel strongly enough to act on the points you're making and try to get them to understand via an actual court room ( which is all that really matters anyways)then nothing you're stating really matters nor holds water and you will continue to get your account banned for "making cheaters look bad". Do I think that bungie should concentrate more on making this game better and stay the -blam!- out of our business? Yes Do I think you'll ever win this battle against bungie? Nope. Good post,nice rant, solid legit information you put out there...but we're dealing with the same company that waited 9 hours to acknowledge that people were having trouble with their update because they decided to release it in the middle of the goddamm day meanwhile not giving any help or insight as to how to make the update finish before the decade was over .

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                  • What we need is a website asides from Bungie where all the cheaters get reported and related videos get posted, after all nothing is private now days. It's not that you'll be posting their credit card numbers or addresses.

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                  • What this forum needs is a batman.... (Oh and robin)

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                  • Edited by MiloOmega: 7/15/2015 5:36:53 AM
                    Too many people posted the names of "hackers" and others that they found undesirable with ill intent. The reason that mods tell you not to post those names is because random people (a bunch who just had bad connections) ended up receiving offensive messages through Xbox and Playstation services. Mods see this posting any gamer tag or ID as a potential sign of harassment and will treat it as such. Even if the person deserves it, don't. It is a bad trend that gets out of hand. [spoiler]I also want to mention that it is against the ToS as it is the spread of private information. Moderators and Bungie employees usually view that information as private too.[/spoiler]

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                    • Edited by Crispy Squ1rr3l: 7/16/2015 5:08:45 PM
                      Very interesting topic. But, remember that a video of said cheating is not total proof of crime unless you have detailed network logs, photo/video evidence of network infrastructure. Anything short is not enough evidence to incarcerate someone for said act of cheating. Which in turns leads to slander. A criminal offense in most countries. Bungie as a corporation needs to protect everyone's interest and with great annoyance. This means the rights and privileges of a possible cheater. Stupid. Yes. Required for fear of a law suite. Yes. Social gaming is such a grey area of rights and privileges. In order to protect yourself and your enjoyment of the product. Use the tools supplied by the company, as, it is under their investigation that matters be dealt with. Saves you a possible legal nightmare. But, saying all this. Well, the "Banning" policy is sorely in need of a review. It has a huge legal hole that if someone wanted to. They could sue all those involved. As well don't get me started on the lack of tangible material for those under legal age to agree to the policy. So in the end. Use the in game features or console reporting features. Let the companies hammer the evidence out. Love the topic Guardian. Truly a clear and readable policy needs to be written.

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                      • I have been extremely frustrated with the lag switching and ddos cheating. I also have no sympathy for the cheaters if they are caught and named publicly. However, I recently had an experience that applies to this topic. I was in trials and the load in time between rounds suddenly became much longer than normal (an indication of ddos). We fully expected one of us to be kicked, but when we loaded in, one of their team had been kicked! My team was totally surprised. Then, throughout the rest of the match, the game was massively glitchy. The other team was transporting, sometimes not taking damage, and appearing to be lag switching. ...except for 1 little detail: they couldn't kill us but we could kill them. I realized that to the other team it probably looked like we were lag switching, and/or ddos'ing but we weren't. This made me rethink my views on this sort of thing. If the other team had posted video of that match and I had been receiving hostile messages, it would have been unfair. Video of an event alone simply is not enough to prove cheating. The system bungie uses to host the pvp games is unreliable and extremely susceptible to natural occurrences that look just like ddos'ing or lag switching. We need to push bungie to at least take trials and iron banner to private servers. That is the only way to actually put an end to the cheating.

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                        • Look at all the comments 600+. Looks like a lot of people are passionate about getting caught and shamed for cheating. Work on stopping pvp cheaters bungie, not sucking the life out of my favorite pve weapons.

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                        • Actually, bungie doesn't know the definition of harrassment. You are following the terms of agreement. Here is the link for the definition of harrassment. I hope they use the term properly next time. http://definitions.uslegal.com/h/harassment/

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                          • Edited by XcEvilGenius: 7/24/2015 11:05:44 PM

                            Started a new topic: Spreading the Truth About Cheaters is NOT prohibited by the Code of Conduct or Terms of Use(24 Replies))

                          • The best part is, bungie is too incompetent to admit that they can't detect lag switchers, because the game is p2p instead of dedicated servers.

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                          • Yeah I've read it quite a few times and nowhere does it state naming and shaming so these support people need to get their facts straight before lying to the community who pays to play this garbage f uckin game

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                            • They leave us to take care of it ourselves. Like they did with matchmaking

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                            • Bungie has an active policy of not banning cheaters.

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                              • Edited by EddieXG1989: 8/31/2015 9:44:26 AM
                                Damn OP....You're pretty stupid. Accord to John Wooden philosophy, you're a successful person. He's someone that would like you as a friend. Its something ;)

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                              • While I agree with both you, and Bungie, (and I'm not picking a side at all) there are definitely possible situations that cause your argument to be invalid/flawed. I made a genuinely long post to give a little insight on some things, but my phone decided to copy the wrong thing, and I lost most of it when copy pasting it back and forth between drafts, so I'm just going to say what I've said. There's flaws. Granted, there are flaws in bungie's code of conduct and terms and conditions as well. But those flaws are made in a way that protects Bungie in all ways possible, so in a way, they're not really flaws, just negative aspects to the terms and conditions and code of conduct. If you want to know what I was going to say was flawed, just comment on this and let me know, otherwise I'd like to save some of my time haha. Again, nothing against you or Bungie so please do not take this the wrong way. I honestly applaud you for pointing stuff out, and Bungie for quickly stopping you, even though they offered sub-par explanations of why you were wrong. Damage control I suppose. Anyways, I have homework to finish! Cheers friend.

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                              • I think we'd all agree that no one would go through the effort of recording and posting about cheaters in the forums if reporting them in-game didn't feel so helpless. There have been numerous posts where 'reported' cheaters were meticulously tracked and no action was taken against them. Maybe if bungie can get better at preventing / stopping real lag-switch cheating rather than thump their chest about that 1 week suspension for switching chars before the game begins, we can all go back to hating on them for everything else under the sun.

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                              • Sometimes you just have to sit back in your place and accept that you are not in charge and are expected to respect the rules and authority of those who are. That's just life. Perhaps rather than argue the policy and attempt to interpret it to your advantage, you could just accept that public shaming is frowned upon and will not be tolerated by the entity that runs this forum. It is what it is.

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